Motion sickness rating for games

[Gdrazzel]

Hi I suffer from motion sickness when playing most first person games, driving games are usually an exception, I'm not sure why. It would be great if you allowed users to rate games for motion sickness say out of 10. I find if I play isometric games eg: Diablo 2 or POE, I never experience it. but often it's hard to figure out if a game is liable to cause this before buying and trying it. It can be very disappointing

[Gdrazzel]

Nguyên văn bởi Spawn of Totoro:

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

I guess this is the crux of it. Each player will know what triggers their own nausea. Should they have to buy and try just to find that it is not compatible? I would say NO. The whole minefield could be avoided if each game clearly displayed which views and methods it uses. We would quickly learn abbreviations and learn to stay away from our personal poisons

Except there is no standards for how those things are done.

The way one implements field of view or motion blur may differ from another. One can cause a person motion sickness, then the other game does not.

There are too many variables and that is even if we exclude the human factor of what causes it for one, may not cause it for another.

Games are one thing that would have to be tried to determine if it can cause motion sickness. Even then, changing aspects with in the game may cause still cause an issue, eg: May be fine with FPS view and fighting, then get sick when driving a vehicle in the game.

Motion sickness isn't life threatening like epilepsy, so it isn't likely to get any such rating or warning.

There is a refund system in place if need be, to minimize such risks.

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

Yea I totally get that it's subjective. however a note that something is spicy as opposed to not spicy might be helpful to those with no tolerance at all :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale

There is a scale for spiciness. It is the effects on the person that are not warned as, like with motion sickness, they differ from person to person and each should know what they can handle and what they can't.

There is no way to measure motion sickness from a game, so what you are asking for isn't even usable by people in any meaningful way. It would just turn users off of a game they may otherwise have enjoyed.

"Either that or it could let players manually enter motion sickness scores for games then average it out and have some kind of approval system or something."

[Spawn of Totoro]

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

"Either that or it could let players manually enter motion sickness scores for games then average it out and have some kind of approval system or something."

We went over that already. I suggest re-reading the other posts.

That would get a false score as each person has different triggers for motion sickness and deals with them in different ways.

Developer want to sell games, not have an unverifiable score that would detract users from buying the game.

A better solution is to just leave a review stating motion sickness as the reason and describe what caused it. Such a system is already in place too.

[Gdrazzel]

I have learned a lot from your replies, not least of all that the triggers for this problem do vary widely. I had no idea. Nearly all of the gamers I know in rt have no concept of motion sickness in game and can't relate to me saying I can't play FPS (I work in a college and talk to the students about gaming so the data pool is in the hundreds). Also I don't have a lot of spare time to join online forums like this.
So I concur that a rating given by the gaming studios would be meaningless. But I am still not convinced that a user rating wouldn't be useful.

What I find really annoying is the lack of information about the in game view.
Please can we see on the main blurb - FPS, 3rd person, isometric, 2d scroller, platfrom etc.
I know some games do show this but it is far from standard and it should be.

[Start_Running]

Nguyên văn bởi Elevenones:

Rather than having a motion sickness rating,
Maybe steam could add a tag to the game like "Fast camera movement*" and then a description of that tag could be "*May cause motion sickness".

Fast as compared to? See again we hit the subjectivity barrier. And remember its not always fast movement. Sometimes its slow camermovement, or even just paralax scrolling.

Some community driven research about the affects of the motion blur effect in games on people who suffer from motion sickness would be beneficial in my opinion and would give more weight for the steam dev team @valve to do something.

For some it cause motion sickness, for some it does, for other turning it on alleviates motion sickness.

[Gdrazzel]

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

I have learned a lot from your replies, not least of all that the triggers for this problem do vary widely. I had no idea. Nearly all of the gamers I know in rt have no concept of motion sickness in game and can't relate to me saying I can't play FPS (I work in a college and talk to the students about gaming so the data pool is in the hundreds). Also I don't have a lot of spare time to join online forums like this.
So I concur that a rating given by the gaming studios would be meaningless. But I am still not convinced that a user rating wouldn't be useful.

What I find really annoying is the lack of information about the in game view.
Please can we see on the main blurb - FPS, 3rd person, isometric, 2d scroller, platfrom etc.
I know some games do show this but it is far from standard and it should be.

Also , my hat off the the games that allow switching from 1st to 3rd to isometric views.
... The perfect solution lol

[Gdrazzel]

Nguyên văn bởi Quint the Alligator Snapper:

Also, I think a good way to evaluate a game for its simulation-sickness potential is to watch a video of gameplay footage.

I don't always find that helpful, although it does show if its a fps etc.
It is subjective to which bit of the game you are watching sometimes

[Gdrazzel]

Nguyên văn bởi Spawn of Totoro:

Developer want to sell games, not have an unverifiable score that would detract users from buying the game.

But this idea was a user rating on steam for steam users. Not put there for the developers, they might take a peek and decide it is not relevant to them but that is their prerogative.

If a system like this was implemented and say only 5% of steam users ever responded the ratings would be universally low. However a game which triggered all of those 5% of respondents would clearly be a risk for us "sensitive" folk and we would know to at the very least check it out carefully before purchase.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

Nguyên văn bởi Quint the Alligator Snapper:

OP's idea is a meaningful one, though it's just that it's not really easy to do because it's a poorly-researched field with little practical standardization at the moment.

However, I'd say that, as a practical matter, it's pretty easy to categorize games according to some basic criteria:

* camera perspective panning - does the camera move its position relative to the scenery? If so, how?
* camera perspective rotation - does the camera turn its angle relative to the scenery? If so, how -- yaw, roll, or pitch?
* camera zoom - does the camera change its range of view independent of position and angle?
* sensitivity - FOV and mouselook sensitivity, camera sensitivity to panning (e.g. how does the camera respond to the character's movements, particularly important in 2D sidescrollers)
* other graphical settings (e.g. motion blur)

Your basic 2D sidescroller has panning, but rarely anything else.

Modern 2D sidescrollers often use 2.5D which involves both panning and zoom.

FPS and TPS games involve both panning and rotation. FPS involves more rotation, as the camera is tied to the character's head, while TPS allows a greater width of sight but less range without rotation.

FPS rotation involves both pitch (i.e. turning up/down) and yaw (i.e. turning left/right). Some TPS games do this, though it's common to restrict this to over-the-shoulder views.

Roll rotation is rarely used in 3D, though sometimes happens in 2D or 2.5D games (e.g. Sonic bonus stages).

Games also differ in their sensitivity. FOV is sorta how far back the "eyes" are, and also mouse sensitivity to changing perspectives, in 3D games that use mouselook.

I've found that games with high FOV, sensitive mouselook, and particularly input lag with regards to mouselook, are the most nauseating.

I also don't like zoom in 2D/2.5D sidescrollers, but it's more of an annoyance than a nausea-inducing thing.

I guess this is the crux of it. Each player will know what triggers their own nausea. Should they have to buy and try just to find that it is not compatible? I would say NO. The whole minefield could be avoided if each game clearly displayed which views and methods it uses. We would quickly learn abbreviations and learn to stay away from our personal poisons

So...

If your request is "games must provide substantially continuous amounts of gameplay footage in trailer videos", so that trailer videos can be used to judge potential for simulation sickness, I would definitely support that, yes.

That's because, "if each game clearly displayed which views and methods it uses" -- that's exactly what the trailers and screenshots are supposed to do.

Beyond that, if your suggestion is to say "games must indicate what perspectives they use for gameplay interface, in their description", I can get behind that too, though it'd be hard to get totally so very very specific as to indicate everything that might possibly set off someone's simulation sickness. Most likely you'd just end up getting something basic, like this:
* perspective: 2D static/adjustable camera
* perspective: 2D sidescrolling
* perspective: 2D top-down
* perspective: 3D static/adjustable camera
* perspective: 3D third-person
* perspective: 3D first-person

Beyond that, it really helps to make use of the game's forums. You can ask about your specific problem. For example, "Does the camera zoom in/out in this 2D sidescroller?" You can also get some of this information from watching gameplay videos. Or asking elsewhere. Or seeing if any of your friends play this game and asking them. Or just asking around in general.

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

Nguyên văn bởi Quint the Alligator Snapper:

Also, I think a good way to evaluate a game for its simulation-sickness potential is to watch a video of gameplay footage.

I don't always find that helpful, although it does show if its a fps etc.
It is subjective to which bit of the game you are watching sometimes

There's no system that's gonna be perfect, but most games don't deviate from their core perspective very often.

[JanWar]

For me motion sickness happened when I used high refresh rate monitor. I'm fine playing csgo in 60hz monitor but when I try it in my friend's 144hz monitor I'm out after 15 minute. Change display setting to 60hz then I'm golden. Lol.
So I guess I'll never need to buy 144hz monitor ever.

[Gdrazzel]

Nguyên văn bởi JanWar:

For me motion sickness happened when I used high refresh rate monitor. I'm fine playing csgo in 60hz monitor but when I try it in my friend's 144hz monitor I'm out after 15 minute. Change display setting to 60hz then I'm golden. Lol.
So I guess I'll never need to buy 144hz monitor ever.

Wow, Id expect the opposite effect. I used to have a high end CRT monitor that for its own reason would randomly reset its self from 60hz to 40hz. I was doing graphics work and I would only notice it because I'd start to get a headache. If I put the refresh up all was good again.

[Satoru]

Note that giving any “rating” for motion sickness would fundamentally be giving an actual medical diagnosis. Which is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS from a liability standpoint.

On top of the fact that a “rating” would functionally be meaningless anyway since it could never be viable for many people

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1629663905425208332/?ctp=2#c1609400247621662598

Your own posts show how much variability there is. How would you have a rating system when people get nausea for reasons you think are “the opposite of what you would think”

[Arax]

Nguyên văn bởi Gdrazzel:

Wow, Id expect the opposite effect. I used to have a high end CRT monitor that for its own reason would randomly reset its self from 60hz to 40hz. I was doing graphics work and I would only notice it because I'd start to get a headache. If I put the refresh up all was good again.

Same. I never had a motion sickness in games, when I used to play on CRT monitor (using 110-140Hz refresh rate, depending on resolution), it appeared only with LCD monitors with their 50-60hz.
also low or unstable fps in games triggers it for me. it should be very stable (fps variations should be within a few units, and not change by tens of units) to minimize the effect.
therefore, I often play at minimum settings, even if videocard allows higher settings.
so, all poorly optimized games are under suspicion for me, until proven otherwise.

Nguyên văn bởi JanWar:

For me motion sickness happened when I used high refresh rate monitor. I'm fine playing csgo in 60hz monitor but when I try it in my friend's 144hz monitor I'm out after 15 minute. Change display setting to 60hz then I'm golden. Lol.
So I guess I'll never need to buy 144hz monitor ever.

Probably, it has something to do with V-sync, not only refresh rate?
switching V-sync on/off sometimes quite strongly influences this sensation.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Nguyên văn bởi Arax:

also low or unstable fps in games triggers it for me

Oh gosh, this, particularly combined with controls lag.