EAcc Developers need to be held responsible

[Scorcher24]

I am a fan of the idea of Early Access, but like many other ideas it fails at the most basic ingredient: Humans.

I understand that development is not always going how you want it, but I have not much of an understanding for some of the companies out there, that abuse the Early Access System in the way they do. Most recent examples for this would be Timber&Stone as well as Godus.
Both Games are in development limbo and nobody knows if they will ever continue. In case of T&S it is even a blatant Violation of the rules since the dev relied on EAcc sales to fund the game, despite having a successfull kickstarter over roughly 90k USD. Yet, both games are still being sold.

Valve, please put into action, what you laid out. Hold all funds from Early Access sales until the game is released in a working state, so people have the opportunity to refund if the development just ceases at some point or a broken Product gets released.

As it is right now, many developers are hiding behind the Early Access FAQ and the involved risk that is laid out there. But that is not very consumer friendly and it invites people to pull scams. T&S has never been updated since it hit EAcc. That should raise some red flags somewhere in your office. Yes, I know, over 4k Games on Steam and such, but still. And the worst: the game is still being sold.

I mean, what are we supposed to do? If you take Timber and Stone as an example, you do your research and you see a kickstarter for nearly 90k USD and you think "well, he got the funds, must be safe". And then he stops making it all out of a sudden. I also cannot just go on the forum and ask the dev for his account balance with his bank and a proof of such.

Yes, I do own Early Access Games, but I always have to do extensive internet searches about the game before I decide to buy it. There are also games that stand out, such as Empyrion (the recent weekend deal) or 7 Days to die, which are updated constantly and get better every month.

But the amount of failed games rises and it will get to a point where nobody can trust EAcc anymore and that cannot be what Valve wants.
Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

edit: a few typos

[BlackSpawn]

Thats not exactly true.
No questions asked/unconditional refunds have been offered in other situations in Steam.
http://steamed.kotaku.com/steam-offers-unconditional-refunds-on-sketchy-game-1722812295

Hah fail to name them?
Ive posted dozens of them in this same forum and youve seen them.
Ive posted curators that mentioned them exclusively.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/dissenters-anonymous#curation

http://store.steampowered.com/curator/10451722-Anti-Consumer-Practice-Report/

[The Brown Hornet]

cinedine の投稿を引用：

The Brown Hornet の投稿を引用：

I have seen enough of this system to conclude that Early Access has lowered the standards of game development.

Then you obviously haven't seen enough of (game) development.
Early Access offeres a pure, unadultered view into game development. And surprise: many teams suck. Many projects fail or at least fail to meet expectations. Many just give up on one point and say they're finished. That's something you haven't seen on a publisher dominated market, but on newgrounds and desura you've seen it plenty of times. Even in the mod-scene for big titles like Unreal Tournament or Morrowind.

Yeah it does offer a view into game development: how can ♥♥♥♥ devs make the most money for the least amount of work? What is the lowest quality game they can sell for the highest price? EAG makes it all possible, almost too easy!

Steam should be ashamed for allowing it and consumers should be ashamed for buying it! But since there are many that argue the so called merits of Early Access we can expect that this business model will continue indefinitely in its current form. Future games will now be even more broken, more low quality, more in eternal limbo...Early access is the development safety net where anything goes, anything is allowed.

Expect the worse.....

[fluxtorrent]

Bahaha he links 2 curators 1 which does not call the games on its list "abuses and misuses" and goes into detail as to what you should be aware of BEFORE purchase or advocating that those titles are viable if you are fine with the problems and 2 that has more nonEAG titles by such a wide margin that it's insane and includes titles like Crysis.

Keep up the good work blackspawn, making our argument for us.

[cinedine]

The Brown Hornet の投稿を引用：

Yeah it does offer a view into game development: how can ♥♥♥♥ devs make the most money for the least amount of work? What is the lowest quality game they can sell for the highest price? EAG makes it all possible, almost too easy!

That has nothing to do with Early Access. That's Steam in general. Air Control, Journey of the Light, Digital Homicide's games (safe for one), Watch Paint Dry, ... none of those went trough Early Access. The last one was explicitely made to display exactly that issue.

[Start_Running]

cinedine の投稿を引用：

The Brown Hornet の投稿を引用：

Yeah it does offer a view into game development: how can ♥♥♥♥ devs make the most money for the least amount of work? What is the lowest quality game they can sell for the highest price? EAG makes it all possible, almost too easy!

That has nothing to do with Early Access. That's Steam in general. Air Control, Journey of the Light, Digital Homicide's games (safe for one), Watch Paint Dry, ... none of those went trough Early Access. The last one was explicitely made to display exactly that issue.

Honestly, I think games like Air COntrol and Watch Paint Dry only exist because of youtubers like Jim Sterling. I cannot conceive of any sane consumer buying them. Though even for games like that and Blind Hotel, I don't begrudge their existence. I note them and then move onto something else. I mean I can't imagine eating escargot but it doesn't offend me that I see them for sale at the gorccery store.

All it comes back to. There are choices, EAcc only offers you the choice to buy and experience the game before completion. If you don't like that idea.. fine , move on and focus on the things you do like.

[BlackSpawn]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

EAcc only offers you the choice to buy and experience the game before completion. If you don't like that idea.. fine , move on and focus on the things you do like.

Before completion?
I think you are ignoring the fact that they are not required to complete the game...or work on it AT ALL for that matter, under current EAG terms of service.

Hence, the need for change.

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

EAcc only offers you the choice to buy and experience the game before completion. If you don't like that idea.. fine , move on and focus on the things you do like.

Before completion?
I think you are ignoring the fact that they are not required to complete the game...or work on it AT ALL for that matter, under current EAG terms of service.

Not ignoring but that it completes is sort of an irrelevant fact, If they never complete you have still purchased the game before completion.
Plus you seem to ignore that all buyers are aware of that risk at the time of purchase and in purchasing have volutarily opted to accept that risk.

No need to change a thing, the consumer chooses, and the consumer acts in accordance to their choices. If they don't like the risk they can choose to avoid it.

[BlackSpawn]

Irrelevant for you.

Not for all the customers that purchase to product to actually participate in "early access" and to take place in shaping the development of the game by providing feedback et al,
something that DOES NOT happen if the game is not worked on.

Said practice literally goes against the stated aims and goals of the program.

The program is a mess.
It is abused and misused left and right.
Its in dire need of iteration.

The only reasonable risk is that the customer may not like the final product, once completed.
All else is early access shaenanigans.

Yes, avoiding it under the current TOS is the best way to proceed.
Fixing and improving it is the 2nd best way to proceed.

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

Irrelevant for you.

Not for all the customers that purchase to product to actually participate in "early access" and to take place in shaping the development of the game by providing feedback et al,
something that DOES NOT happen if the game is not worked on.

if a game is not being worked on, or rather if developement has irrevocably shut down, the game is either put to full release or removed from steam, depending on the developers call. Remember. The consumer is clearly told that the game may or may not change. The risk has been forewarned and in purchasing the consukmer explicitly agrees to accept that risk.

Hence irrelevant. If they did not like the risk or agree to it, they would not have purchased. It. if you did not spicy hot wings, you would not have ordered the spicy hot wings.

Said practice literally goes against the stated aims and goals of the program.

As YOU understand and interpret them. And we have all seen your capacity for understanding information presented to you and the logic applied in your iterpretations thereof.

The only reasonable risk is that the customer may not like the final product, once completed.
All else is early access shaenanigans.

So you accept that Spacebase was not a scam or shennanigan then. Ofr it did release a final product. Just one no one liked.

[BlackSpawn]

They consumer is also told that Early Access is where games are developed with feedback and consumer participation.
And features, concepts, mechanics, modes are MARKETED on the Steam store and used to make the sale of the product.

There are responsibilities on the distributor and dev/publisher end for said claims and actions.

The fact that you dont want it to change is irrelevant.
It is abused, misused and unscrupulous and/or incompetent projects are simply able to drop their projects for the cash grab.

Its a disgrace at the moment.

The successes of EAG do not excuse the many failures.

Rushing a feature incomplete title/alpha to full release is a complete scam, just a change in tag basically; just one of the many misuses/abuses possible under the current Terms of Service.

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

They consumer is also told that Early Access is where games are developed with feedback and consumer participation.
And features, concepts, mechanics, modes are MARKETED on the Steam store and used to make the sale of the product.

You do know that them reading analysing your save files and game logs counts as userfeedback. In case you hadn't realized.

The marketing is within acceptable advertising tolerances. The consumer is clearly told that some features may never materialize . It's like a lottery tickey. You do realize that even if you win, they will never write you a cheque for the amount of the jackpot right?

There are responsibilities on the distributor and dev/publisher end for said actions.

Those reponsibilities are being upheld. The devs are required to keep the store page up to date and encouraged not to over promise on features or specifics. WHich is something you have paradoxically also taken issue with.

The fact that you dont want it to change is irrelevant.

Whether it changes or not does not affect me.

It is abused, misused and unscrupulous and/or incompetent projects are simply able to drop their projects for the cash grab.[/quote as per your particular definitions of the words. As said. we have seen how you define terms.

The successes of EAG do not exclude the many failures.

The successes have nothing to do with the failures and the failures have nothing to do with successes. Each are their own thing. Each man is repsonsible for themself, not someone else.

if you do not find the terms and risks to your liking.. abstain. Those that find it acceptable will participate. WHy do you have a problem with this arrangement?

[BlackSpawn]

LOL Sure, in game analytics extraneous to the player are user feedback now?
Laughable. I am not suprised.

The marketing is misleading with alarming regularity.
Again, features, concepts, mechanics, modes used to make the sale and advertised on the Steam store not uncommonly NEVER materialize into the game in question.

This is no lottery and no investment.
Purely a cashgrab.
There is no prize at the end of the ticket.

Your claim that responsibilities are being upheld doesnt make it so.
Myriad of abandoned projects and/or misuses/abuses of the system are populating the early access graveyard.

They are encouraged not to promise but they do it on the regular and there is no consequence when they fail to deliver.

If changes in EAG wouldnt affect you, you wouldnt be populating each and every thread over the last few years trying to quell valid criticism of all the shady practices that are allowed for within the platform as it stands.
Or is that just part of your PR/marketing responsibilities?

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

LOL Sure, in game analytics extraneous to the player are user feedback now?
Laughable. I am not suprised.

What should also not surprise you is that it's often more useful than what the player says. YOu'd be amazed the information that gets saved in those files. Crash reports, with tracebacks, you can actually see what users are doing, where they are having difficulty and why they are having difficulty since it's not uncommon to keep death tallies in such files. That is feedback. Just because you're participating doesn't mean they want or require your opinion. You're essentially just a a warm piece of meat to warm the keyboard.

Not all do it that way but some do and some don't. They use it in the manner that suits their development style and path.

The marketing is misleading with alarming regularity.
Again, features, concepts, mechanics, modes used to make the sale and advertised on the Steam store not uncommonly NEVER materialize into the game in question.

And you are told this up front. the part that seems to evade your understanding sweet heart.
"Features may or may not materialize"

This is no lottery and no investment.
Purely a cashgrab.
There is no prize at the end of the ticket.

Actually it is akin to a lottery . In a lottery they market the jackpot they will never write a cheque for and you buy a ticket with the hope of winning the imaginary cheque that will never exist.

COme to think of it, EAcc is actually more forthright than the lottery. Which is perfectly legal and acceptable in many countries.

Your claim that responsibilities are being upheld doesnt make it so.
Myriad of abandoned projects and/or misuses/abuses of the system are populating the early access graveyard.

SHow me these 'abandoned' projects that are still being sold. Keep in mind a projected is only dead or abandoned when the developer says it is dead. Or that they will not work on it ever again.


So if you can find me a game being sold that means the objective definition of the term abandoned, please feel free to post the links.

They are encouraged not to promise but they do it on the regular and there is no consequence when they fail to deliver.

Because they are only contractually obligated to deliver one and only one thing. WHat this thing is and that it is the limit of their contractual obligatuion is made clear to the buyer prior to purchase. If the buyer chooses to accept.. the buck stops with them.

If changes in EAG wouldnt affect you, you wouldnt be populating each and every thread over the last few years trying to quell valid criticism of all the shady practices that are allowed for within the platform as it stands.

I could raise similar questions about your involvement. Seems like voices like yours and Kaboom popped up right about the time GoG announced GiD... kind of suspicious.

[BlackSpawn]

Yeah, passive analytics are useful.
Completely irrelevant as they are not the community involvement that EAG speaks of.

Features that are promised and marketed need to materialize, or we get into false advertising territory.
That is what you fail to understand.

EAG goes out of its way to explain what it is, then adopts TOS that allow developers and publishers to subvert the whole process and go straight for the cashgrab.
That is the problem.

LOL Your personal definition of abandoned is worthless.
The reality of said games is what matters.
There needs to be a standardized definition of "active development" and "game abandonment" that steam uses to tag/flag/mark or direct titles into a certain pathway/section of the store.

Ive already mentioned you a myriad of abandoned projects.
If you really care, a quick google search will give you eyefuls.
Look at the curators I gave you if you wnt to see some more.
I know DOZENS of games that are objectively abandoned and/or have done the alpha --> full release tag change.

The problem is that said contract has been diluted into non committal ineffectiveness.
The lower barrier for entry allows for these misuses/abuses to become institutionalized by the program.

The buyer is not the sole problem.
The unscrupulous/incompetent developer/publisher is the other end of it.
Both need to be addressed.

Well, you have said that PR/marketing is your trade. (Along with programming)
It certainly is not mine.
I like GOG but they have no publically traded stock and sadly they dont pay my bills.

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

Yeah, passive analytics are useful.
Completely irrelevant as they are not the community involvement that EAG speaks of.

PArdon.. I don't see where in the ToS or the EAcc marketing it says that the developers were obligated to actually listen to what the players are saying.

Features that are promised and marketed need to materialize, or we get into false advertising territory.
That is what you fail to understand.

Nope, there is the caveat of YMMV or as you may often hear usually said quickly 'Results shown not typical' or 'results may vary'. So long as you are advised that there is a a chance that results may differ then you are clear, especially in cases where the results are to manifest over time. So again, if you can prove this is a case of false advertising, you're welcome to sue Valve and rake in the millions. If it's so clear cut and evident that's basicall free money. Unless as usual , you're talking crap.

EAG goes out of its way to explain what it is, then adopts TOS that allow developers and publishers to subvert the whole process and go straight for the cashgrab.
That is the problem.

And only to the brain dead does that discord appear, because they failed to properly uunderstand one or both. Given what we have all seen of you Blackspawn...well I need not say more.

LOL Your personal definition of abandoned is worthless.
The reality of said games is what matters.

Unfortunately that's not my personal definition, that's the upheld, legal definition. As long as the developers say they are working on it, no one can say otherwise.

There needs to be a standardized definition of "active development" and "game abandonment" that steam uses to tag/flag/mark or direct titles into a certain pathway/section of the store.

I just told you what that is. Are you blind or just willfully ignorant. Definition is, have the devs said they will no longer be working on it? No, then it is in active development. A glacier moves slowly, but it moves never the less.

I know DOZENS of games that are objectively abandoned and/or have done the alpha --> full release tag change.

Irrelevant. That means that they are done developing the game and it can be considered a finished product. A crappy product but stil, finished. DEveloper knows when they're done and the dev is the only one in a position to say when they are done.

The problem is that said contract has been diluted into non committal ineffectiveness.
The lower barrier for entry allows for these misuses/abuses to become institutionalized by the program.

30 goto 10

The buyer is not the sole problem.
The unscrupulous/incompetent developer/publisher is the other end of it.
Both need to be addressed.

No just the idiot buyers. The sensible ones are having fun. :)

I like GOG but they have no publically traded stock and sadly they dont pay my bills.

Suuuuure they don't.