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On any case returning to the main part of the topic, and to the Right to Quote that was the main point I relpy on, to begin with
What I am saying is that I do not think the Right to Quote is relevant for the case of putting an image on your profile
It does not need to say just that, but it does need to point to it in some way to show it in the group that its allowed
Are you trying to say that you think that a user will put a showcase with part of the background to express or communicate something about the art he puts in that showcase?
Because I think there may be some rare cases where that is true, for the most part I think users want it to fit there "theme" not really caring what the image it self is, as in its art it self, but on there profile
The art is to express and so on about them self/there profile, not about the art that is shown on it
I think you are correct here on this matter
It does answer available to the public and there for can be used when its correct for the right to quote, that as said I yet don't think the profile showcase for fitting with the background or the like is that way
I think you have miss understan my view there, you are uploading the content to Steam and Steam shows this content (the server) Steam it self is run and owned by Valve
There for I will a assume to a level that Valve is resposible for the content on it, and there for one of the main reasons to ask if you own it, is if they allow to show it on the public area on there site in your primission on that, and then I do think Valve can get an agreement with the developer for them self, that will roll over to content you roll that is used on Valves end
DMCA I do think is a process to remove content from the site, something that is happening as part or that at the very least reqreires the same abilty from the issuer to sue the "uploader" in are case
I will try to think on possiblitys of things simmiler to it that may have happen, as I do assume such a thing exsist, even that for the most part in the case here I see it unlikely as it is something that developers likely will not want to block anyway if they ever even think aobut it
But il search and see what I find when the idea come to mind, and time will be in hand
Relating to the precise applicability of the Right to Quote to the situation we're discussing, there's two pieces of my statements I didn't yet joined together. I were exposing a "T-shirt analogy" you may want to read back in my previous post, and were speaking about physical collectible cards, mainly in the last paragraph of the same. So, imagine I wear a T-shirt with some drawing on it. The drawing was made by someone, its author, and that's a copyrighted content (one may not counterfeit it). With my hand, I hold and show a rare physical collectible card I've just found and bought on the second-hand market (card author got no money from the deal, as uses are). And a big smile on my mouth because it took me ages to obtain that card to add to my collection. Now you take a photo of me, and I post the photo on my profile with some short comment like "happy day". Of course I add on my profile a zoom on the card because I'm using it to exchange about with other collectors. In this deliberately crafted example, I see two graphical/image quotes. The first is the T-shirt drawing, that's an out of topic quote, but the drawing is easily recognizable as being one of a recent movie. The second is the card, that's an on-topic quote. Both quotes seems to me legitimates because reasonnably required by the purpose of my post on my profile : hence I see the point n° 5 of your link, "Your quotation must be no more than is required to achieve your purpose", being what is "pointing it in some way to show it in the group that its allowed". Is there a difference (in law) with the idea of the OP ? If so, I don't see which one.
Concerning the correct way to use the showcases, personal tastes are the first idea to keep in mind, rights comes hereafter. In the midst of all the copyrights regulations, there is a decently sized place for fair re-uses, and even bigger when it's about a non-commercial re-use. However, any fair re-use of a copyrighted content needs to be made with a purpose, whatever it is, one shall not "hijack" the right to quote (nor other fair limitation of copyrights) with the sole intent to shunt a valid copyright claim. You've overinterpreted this idea of a purpose as being alike a genuinely pure artistic one, overlooking bare human behaviours of expressing and communicating (those cannot be explained in a few words), two fundamentals a social network is intrinsically about. On his Steam profile, one may show images in so many different ways, for example there's people selling games with achievements which in turn are only colored letters, and some steamnauts are buying that to write a word on their showcase. This has few to do with the Right to Quote, and more with expression and/or communication. One can do that, why caring (in right) about the motivations that may lead another to show a trading card image ? Expressing something (im-)precise about the card (like a "good game" feeling) ? Just displaying an image that fits the general theme of its profile ? Whatever motivation, to my eyes it would both tie in uses on Steam and tie in the way people are dressing and behaving themselves everyday :-)
About the responsibilities of Valve, you asked the complicated question, mind-locking yourself on the requirement of a permission before an upload. This requirement is of general meaning and applicability, but like I said previously I've seen nothing/nobody explaining if it needs to be explicit, nor witch type of situations may be interpreted as implicit permissions (see #75). I was precisely telling you that having too many differences between EULA make things impossible to remember : imagine this game developper allowing upload of the card images, and this other disallowing it, then multiply by the number of games here, add Steam's competitors and the games of their catalogs, lastly complete those maths with others not-gaming related sites allowing the upload of contents... It would be puzzling anyone (and that's a problem by itself in right), and make them makes mistakes. The Right to Quote would be handy here, because it would fully clear out the requirement of a permission, using other methods to balance each one's rights : hence, if this right is applicable, it would also be cleared out from the agreements texts to clarify them. This wouldn't voids the need to warn/inform people they cannot upload anything anytime like they want, so Valve would inform them : of course they have a responsibilities in running the servers. Here, laws are defining a complex system of a multi-layer levels of responsibilities and rights, depending on what does the company (editor, publisher, creator, ...). Moreover, a company (Valve), owning and running a site (Steam) may fall in multiple categories at the same time, depending on the sections of the said site. This makes the Right to Quote handy a second time here, because one might not get sued for something it has the right to do, wouldn't he ? This also makes the difference when compared to the sandwich-ing of agreements you're talking about.
Do you prefer sandwiches ? ...giving more jobs for lawyers and jurists ; but it can quickly gives hell-ish result from the consumers point of view. A quick glance at the 'cards exchange' forums here, and you'll see gazillons of posts refering to cards by their numbers. Not really the most practical way of telling which cards one holds or want. Having the possibility to post images of thoses cards could become handy, with a little tool to help layouting posts. If such a tool were existing, or even without such a tool, if the Steam forum was allowing to post card's images for direct trading purposes, would you see that as a quote or as something needing the rights owner to provide explicit permissions ? I can extend the question, what if such a 'forum with trading tool with card image' is created outside of Steam community forums ? Would it be 'quoting' or would such idea needing each and every rights owner to give explicit permission for each and every card set ? Well, this is an other story...
It doesn’t matter that people trade cards second hand. They’re allowed to do that, I’m not questioning that at all. They’re not allowed to, separately from that, distribute the artists’ works as their own. They own the cards, not the art. If they want to gove someone else the art, they can give them the card.
Get over yourself.
I didn’t say that, no. I wouldn’t blame you for getting me mixed up for someone else in this trainwreck of a thread though.
If you’re actually trying to be concise, consider leaving out basic explanations of how the web works.
Of course you can. The meaning of the word distribute has absolutely nothing to do with how many other people are also distributing.
The fact that you started bringing up “public URLs” before was a red flag, but I held out hope you weren’t going here. This is a such a tremendous misunderstanding of the nature of copyright.
Something merely being accessible to you doesn’t give you any rights over it. Available in public is not the same as public domain. These images are available via Steam servers because Steam has permission to distribute them as part of their agreement with developers. People who don’t have that permission are not entitled to distribute someone’s work.
I can’t have this discussion anymore. Good luck.
If I was to make a pencil-, or hand drawn copy of the artwork. Would I? I would be modifying it, yes?
Can it even be called art, if it is inspired by something else? Doesn´t this concept render all created art unworthy of being called art?
(This is not the end for me. I´m still confused.)
Did not frogot yet need time to answer
Do want to point taking and image of the pysical card to show the card is in the right to quote possible
Unlike using the image on its own even more when its used for the profile not for its own like the case of you photo of the card
Honstly on that I need to say all matter I disscused at least come from the side of law
Much less ethics behind it
On that we have a world of no agreement yet and its yet disscused so will be impossible to give any clear answer
For one exsample I think there is a case in court now about an clied artist that takes outhers art and edit parts of it leaving most of it the same
Its disscused if that is on copyright or not
If its art on its own or something else
So its yet evloving
Because again the way and reason its taken, one is taken to show the card, For its own right, the second is for the profile not for the card
Beside that one is an image of the physical item, the second is the digital item
Ive told you already about case by case yet you persist in trying to throw everything into this from games mods,to music. We are talking about a static picture, not a wave length. For a start the latter is way more complicated and vastly difficult to discuss.
The example you gave was merely a single person playing all the same keys as the two. It becomes a different thing when a larger amount of people using different notes achieve the same resonance acoustically. Frequencies can be made up of a multitude of ways, espcially when bouncing off each other, even without instruments being involved.
Regardless what, it boils down to is something the same or is it not and in doing so we must look at what can be permitted like for instance we cant copyright a chord or color but we can a specifc sequence of measure. The copyright owner does not get to decide what that is.
An easy way to see this is imagine a steam background of a mountain range where you can see the foot of the mountain, the peaks and the sky cloudless. Now imagine slapping a dirty great black box covering the drawing 50% in the middle. All of a sudden we have lost context as dirt is dirt and sky is sky of no discernable nature. The indentifying marks like the slope, the peaks are gone so we cant say if there was a mountain.
Now if we add textured clouds, bolders maybe a lizard at the foot of the mountain, even with the 50% blackening we can still clearly say that is that drawing unless of course the second artist either removes/replaces those indentifying markers like adds extra texture and shading to the clouds giving the appearence of light in a different direction to the original and or swaps a lizard for a snake and reshapes and or removes bolders.
Like i said its all case by case basis dependant on the work the second artist puts in. The only reason such alterations are obvious on steam is solely because the background outside of the steam middle box interface is there as if it were possible to upload your own background, the appearance coming from a good artist would be vastly different all over and infact wouldnt even bother using the original. Like i said, take that background out of the equation on both ends, take that 506x928 and dump in onto the net and it wont be obvious what it is because its a tiny indiscriminate piece of the orignal.
Context is everything.
Thinking back about Γαῖα's idea of a poster with stickers :
We're allowed to pin real
The Right to Quote does apply on copyrighted content publically available, so it's of importance to make sure a content is publically available before attempting to quote it. You're comfortable with the "basic explanations of how the web works", this is making you quite an unusual(?) person ; many won't see "bases" in that ! I've not used words "public domain" in this topic.
Of course you can.
I was thinking about the monks in the Middle Ages, hand-copying books with no copyrights but full of 'illuminations' and other decorative ideas ; and then if it were copyrights, what would have happened to us ?
"one is taken to show the card" is your pure speculation, it can be to show its image, or both. Like a photo of a painted motorbike : is it about the engine or the painting ? whatever...
"the second is for the profile" : yay, and ? what are you meaning here ?
If I shoot my computer's screen, it will be an "image of the physical item" (with the specific colors balances of my screen and my camera, and the specific ambient lightning), so may I post it instead of the original ? Knowing the photo may be of lesser quality, it may show a negative image of the original author, what do you think about that ?
The Right to Quote as pointed before is for things related to the Quoted
In other words, you can quote part of the book some book saying "Love the smell of chilly in the morning" if you want to use that in the context of talking about the line, or about the movie that it was in or the book or whatever
But you cant use the Right to Quote to quote that line just because you want (and without saying who is the source)
Just to point its yet possible that it's allowed, but I honestly don't think the Right to Quote is the part that will allow it, I don't think its use fits for what we are talking about
Beside that to be completely honest taking a photo of the card I wonder if its even breaking anything at all, as I am not even sure that is considered the same, but that is really diving into CopyRights, and that I am not sure we should go too much into without a layer
My exact words that you first replied to were " All your doing is providing a window so more of that said background can be seen. At this stage it is there artwork however if you begin to add overlays then that definition begins to shift. If you add at the very least 50% (thats includes the transparent parts you cant see), it becomes your artwork to and predominately so when you consider how many overlays you use".
You keep forgeting its only 506x928, 100x928 (theres also the alternative to the 100 thats 3x very small squares) of the orignal thats anything but central. So your not going to have an aweful lot of indentifying marks in that cube cut away from the orignal. 50% is a lot of artwork ontop of that piece, i know, ive done my fair share and its only the outer background that gives any clue what it is which has nothing to do with the question steam ask as you didnt upload the chosen background, steam provided it internally and you arent claiming that to be your artwork, just the 506x928,etc. Its also worth saying artists cut down the transparent as it does not have to sit end to end from top to bottom, just the bare min needed to position the overlay art piece/pieces correctly.
As to whether or not it is a persons artwork in the end on steam as to what a person uploads is only a question i could answer on a case by case basis as ive seen alsorts.
Well, going back to the link[www.copyrightuser.org] you posted some days ago, there's a quoted illustration on the top. That's an off-topic quote, there to illustrate not 'what is a quote', but 'what may be a quote in the situation of a review'. There is no real review (only an explanation of what may be one), so that wouldn't be a quote for you ('coz it's "just because they want"), except they were willing to show a quote to illustrate so they quoted it anyway (but they may had quoted nothing, and still illustrated the same way, so there's really a quote). There's a paradox, isn't it ? They do different from what you say.
Same for "I don't think its use fits" : you already said similar things multiple times, but not why you're thinking that, someone reading you will easily infer you don't plan to do it, but not if there is any 'rational reason' behind your choice. I don't question your choices !
"just because you want" is like when I told you, you cutted the first point of your link at the comma, reading only what is after. I don't think you paid enough attention to the fifth point, and to the concluding quote (which is not giving clues, but still instructive). You found that site (I wasn't knowing it even if a UK one, not a worldwide law, but there's other "fair uses" in other places).
About the cards, I've checked, there are cards with the game logo, so "embodied acknowledgement" ; and there's a comment field to use when uploading for when there's image with no logo. Don't overlook the example they took in the end of point number one ("showing a whole film", disallowed), it may be a relevant comparison in some situations, but irrelevant in others. I've did my best to explain how it can be winding
Can you take photos inside all museums in your country ? I don't see the diving ! That's related to the example you explained about (illegitimate) photos of famous people : there's things we're generally allowed to do in the real world that then become very hard, or impossible to do in the virtual one, and among the most common answers are "that's the technic" or "that's the copyright". About the latter, generally there's no explanation of why "that's not" in the real world (like I was saying, exchanging the cards, second-hand market, pinning cards or stickers on your phone which is seen by everyone, and the like...).
I don't remember reading anything forbidding to take photos of my screen (unlike at the entrance of the museums), but it may be written in small letters somewhere I don't remenber... (should I search for it ?) And if it's allowed, what would be the difference between a real photo and a screenshot like AustrAlien2010 was willing to take ? And if it's disallowed, why we can do it with real cards ? I don't understand.
The content is to be seen, so the content is to be evaluated, if needs be.