Steam refuses to refund - faulty playtime records

[i_am_gram]

Bought PUBG to try to get on the bandwagon less than a week ago. Transaction is fresh enough that it's still pending on my credit card account. Went to download and install and oops, turns out my system can't support the game, fails to launch. No problem, right? Steam refund policy provides if zero play time and under 2 weeks of purchase, I can get a full refund. Except, for some reason, the faulty launcher being open counts as 'played time' in Steam's records - so now I have 20 hours of 'played time' on a game that's never successfully launched. Submit a refund request anyway and explain that I was never able to launch the game, but get denied - three times. No comments, nothing to address my explanation, just a canned response.

Cool system you've got here Steam - kinda convenient that you control the system of record that determines whether or not I'm eligible for a refund huh? Never mind the fact that I've had an account for years and have never requested a refund before (clearly not trying to abuse the refund system). I'd heard stories about bad customer support and abusive refund policies here, but hoped they were corner cases. Afraid that's not the case. Almost makes you miss the old EB Games days. At least there somebody would give you the time of day before refusing to take back your scratched up disc.

If anybody's dealt with this before and was able to successfully pry a refund out of Valve's greedy claws, I'd be much obliged. Seems like there's no other options than to keep hammering on the 'please reconsider my refund request' door. Looking into other options through my credit card issuer or other avenues. At this point, if they're refusing to consider even the simplest refund request, I'm more interested in getting my money out of them in customer service annoyance than anything. Shouldn't have played around with a lawyer with years' experience dealing with nuisance consumer legal claims. Maybe a few privacy access requests will sort them out.

[Teksura]

Next time, I think you should take a second to check your status on Steam and make sure the game has indeed shut down if it was already giving you problems to begin with. Just because you can't see anything running doesn't mean something isn't still running. Task Manager will also show you processes which are still running, and it's a good idea to check that as well.

Valve's policy on refunds doesn't budge because they have no way to confirm anything other than how long the process was running on your system. They have no way to confirm you're telling the truth. For all they know, you could have been playing for that 20 hours, and then got bored with it and want your money back thus getting the game for free. And believe me, people do lie like that when they want refunds. A lot. Oh, the stories I could tell...

[Moderate my posterior.]

Yeah no. All you have is your "word" that you didn't play the game. You have no case. Your computer logged 20 hours of the .exe running and thats the only thing a court will look at. Well that and the fact that the game runs fine for it's users so it is not a faulty product. You are not entitled to a refund so you won't get one. A chargeback will get your account locked as that is fraud and even if you had a case you'd waste more in fee's to lose in court than the game costs.

[XBL Laberbacke]

Steam can't see what you did, only that it took you so long. And you may be a lawyer, but they have tons themselves. You will not win.

[Teksura]

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Seems like there's no other options than to keep hammering on the 'please reconsider my refund request' door.

Also, do not do this. You're not going to magically get a different answer. and spamming the support system- which is what you are doing here -has consequences. One of those consequences is the fact that you flood the system with junk requests that have already been resolved, thus forcing them to spend time dealing with more junk requests that have already been resolved and fewer people who actually need help. Another consequence can be they may consider spamming the system to be abuse of the system, which according to the SSA which you agreed to, can disqualify you from future refunds.


In short, if you're upset because you did not qualify for a refund, abusing the refund ticket system is not a good idea.

[i_am_gram]

Hmm. So, not a lot of actual help here, so not sure how much it's going to be worth going into this, but a few points

@Teksura - good point there, should've probably checked my task manager. Then again, I'm not really in the habit of backtracking to see which programs are running at any given point in time, and expecting that of your customers actively monitor their tasks just in case the program that appears, by all evidence, to be terminated is in fact terminated seems... excessive. The decent thing to do here, given the amount of money I've poured into Valve over the years (and the amount of money I would have in the future, had they offered a humane approach to dealing with customer requests) would be honour a simple refund request.

@Butterfly - This isn't a court case - it's a customer service interaction. Any decent company that treats its customers like more than profit centres is willing to insert a bit of humanity into working with their customers, particularly if there's ambiguity in whether they're meeting their obligations as a service provider. If I buy a pair of jeans, they don't fit, and I return them, the retailer doesn't say "well, I only have your "word" you didn't wear these to a rave" - they refund the jeans, because they know it's the right thing to do to maintain the customer relationship and ensure the customer keeps coming back. As to a chargeback being "fraud" - I don't even know where to begin, but I can assure you that locking my account because I filed a chargeback request - which I'm legally entitled to do under payment network rules - would be an issue itself

@XBL - How much do you think their lawyers cost? Because I guarantee it's more than the $40 they're refusing to refund me. I don't have to win - I just have to incur more than $40 in costs. Welcome to the world of litigation strategy, my friend.

If anybody has any practical guidance on how to get a refund case escalated, I'm all ears.

[XBL Laberbacke]

Just stop.

[Moderate my posterior.]

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Hmm. So, not a lot of actual help here, so not sure how much it's going to be worth going into this, but a few points

@Teksura - good point there, should've probably checked my task manager. Then again, I'm not really in the habit of backtracking to see which programs are running at any given point in time, and expecting that of your customers actively monitor their tasks just in case the program that appears, by all evidence, to be terminated is in fact terminated seems... excessive. The decent thing to do here, given the amount of money I've poured into Valve over the years (and the amount of money I would have in the future, had they offered a humane approach to dealing with customer requests) would be honour a simple refund request.

@Butterfly - This isn't a court case - it's a customer service interaction. Any decent company that treats its customers like more than profit centres is willing to insert a bit of humanity into working with their customers, particularly if there's ambiguity in whether they're meeting their obligations as a service provider. If I buy a pair of jeans, they don't fit, and I return them, the retailer doesn't say "well, I only have your "word" you didn't wear these to a rave" - they refund the jeans, because they know it's the right thing to do to maintain the customer relationship and ensure the customer keeps coming back. As to a chargeback being "fraud" - I don't even know where to begin, but I can assure you that locking my account because I filed a chargeback request - which I'm legally entitled to do under payment network rules - would be an issue itself

@XBL - How much do you think their lawyers cost? Because I guarantee it's more than the $40 they're refusing to refund me. I don't have to win - I just have to incur more than $40 in costs. Welcome to the world of litigation strategy, my friend.

If anybody has any practical guidance on how to get a refund case escalated, I'm all ears.

You are only entitled to a chargeback if the services or goods were not delivered and as advertised. As this is not the case it is very much fraud. Your inability to operate them is an issue you need to address not them. you agreed to the terms of the sale, which includes to the refund criteria.

[i_am_gram]

Originally posted by XBL Laberbacke:

Just stop.

Thanks for your help, my dude. Good luck out there!

[i_am_gram]

Originally posted by Socialist Butterfly:

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Hmm. So, not a lot of actual help here, so not sure how much it's going to be worth going into this, but a few points

@Teksura - good point there, should've probably checked my task manager. Then again, I'm not really in the habit of backtracking to see which programs are running at any given point in time, and expecting that of your customers actively monitor their tasks just in case the program that appears, by all evidence, to be terminated is in fact terminated seems... excessive. The decent thing to do here, given the amount of money I've poured into Valve over the years (and the amount of money I would have in the future, had they offered a humane approach to dealing with customer requests) would be honour a simple refund request.

@Butterfly - This isn't a court case - it's a customer service interaction. Any decent company that treats its customers like more than profit centres is willing to insert a bit of humanity into working with their customers, particularly if there's ambiguity in whether they're meeting their obligations as a service provider. If I buy a pair of jeans, they don't fit, and I return them, the retailer doesn't say "well, I only have your "word" you didn't wear these to a rave" - they refund the jeans, because they know it's the right thing to do to maintain the customer relationship and ensure the customer keeps coming back. As to a chargeback being "fraud" - I don't even know where to begin, but I can assure you that locking my account because I filed a chargeback request - which I'm legally entitled to do under payment network rules - would be an issue itself

@XBL - How much do you think their lawyers cost? Because I guarantee it's more than the $40 they're refusing to refund me. I don't have to win - I just have to incur more than $40 in costs. Welcome to the world of litigation strategy, my friend.

If anybody has any practical guidance on how to get a refund case escalated, I'm all ears.

You are only entitled to a chargeback if the services or goods were not delivered and as advertised. As this is not the case it is very much fraud. Your inability to operate them is an issue you need to address not them. you agreed to the terms of the sale, which includes to the refund criteria.

I guess we have a disagreement about whether the goods were 'delivered' - the way I look at it, if I can't use the product, a refund policy exists but the refund policy inaccurately measures whether or not I used the product, I'm in the right. That's ok though! There are mechanisms to resolve stuff like this, and in all likelihood, I don't come out on top here. Still seems really unkind for a company to do business that way, and means I probably won't be coming back. Until that happens though, as a consumer it's my right to try to get value for my dollar, and I'd support anybody else (including you, and anybody else here) who's trying to protect their interests against a billion dollar company like Valve. Good luck out there!

[Teksura]

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Hmm. So, not a lot of actual help here, so not sure how much it's going to be worth going into this, but a few points

You misunderstand. You got plenty of help and answers. They may not have been the answers you wanted to hear and not the result you wanted, but they are correct. that does not make it "not actual help". that just makes it not what you wanted to hear.

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Any decent company that treats its customers like more than profit centres is willing to insert a bit of humanity into working with their customers, particularly if there's ambiguity in whether they're meeting their obligations as a service provider. If I buy a pair of jeans, they don't fit, and I return them, the retailer doesn't say "well, I only have your "word" you didn't wear these to a rave" - they refund the jeans, because they know it's the right thing to do to maintain the customer relationship and ensure the customer keeps coming back.

Actually, you're a bit off track. If you buy a new pair of jeans and then wear them for a while and bring them back all dirty and ripped from obvious abuse, the store is not going to take them back. They will not take them back because they have obviously been worn. Similar will happen with a T-shirt that has obvious sweat stains in the pits (true story to that example). You can buy a metal file from a home improvement store and bring it back all scratched up from use and they will refuse the refund because it is obviously used.

It's not a question of taking someone at their word. It's a question of what information the retailer has available to them.

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

As to a chargeback being "fraud" - I don't even know where to begin, but I can assure you that locking my account because I filed a chargeback request - which I'm legally entitled to do under payment network rules - would be an issue itself

When you issue a chargeback, you are telling your bank that the payment was not authorized by you. You are saying that farud has been comitted by someone else by making an unauthorized payment. If this is not the case, then by definition that is an act of fraud on your part, and it is illegal to comit fraud in most civilized places. Part of the SSA which you agreed to allows Steam to lock your account in the event of fradulent activity, which you would be claiming to have occurred. But because they know people lie about this sort of thing, they do give you a period to reverse the chargeback to remove the lock. This is what you would have to do to unlock the account again.

[i_am_gram]

Originally posted by Teksura:

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Hmm. So, not a lot of actual help here, so not sure how much it's going to be worth going into this, but a few points

You misunderstand. You got plenty of help and answers. They may not have been the answers you wanted to hear and not the result you wanted, but they are correct. that does not make it "not actual help". that just makes it not what you wanted to hear.

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Any decent company that treats its customers like more than profit centres is willing to insert a bit of humanity into working with their customers, particularly if there's ambiguity in whether they're meeting their obligations as a service provider. If I buy a pair of jeans, they don't fit, and I return them, the retailer doesn't say "well, I only have your "word" you didn't wear these to a rave" - they refund the jeans, because they know it's the right thing to do to maintain the customer relationship and ensure the customer keeps coming back.

Actually, you're a bit off track. If you buy a new pair of jeans and then wear them for a while and bring them back all dirty and ripped from obvious abuse, the store is not going to take them back. They will not take them back because they have obviously been worn. Similar will happen with a T-shirt that has obvious sweat stains in the pits (true story to that example). You can buy a metal file from a home improvement store and bring it back all scratched up from use and they will refuse the refund because it is obviously used.

It's not a question of taking someone at their word. It's a question of what information the retailer has available to them.

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

As to a chargeback being "fraud" - I don't even know where to begin, but I can assure you that locking my account because I filed a chargeback request - which I'm legally entitled to do under payment network rules - would be an issue itself

When you issue a chargeback, you are telling your bank that the payment was not authorized by you. You are saying that farud has been comitted by someone else by making an unauthorized payment. If this is not the case, then by definition that is an act of fraud on your part, and it is illegal to comit fraud in most civilized places. Part of the SSA which you agreed to allows Steam to lock your account in the event of fradulent activity, which you would be claiming to have occurred. But because they know people lie about this sort of thing, they do give you a period to reverse the chargeback to remove the lock. This is what you would have to do to unlock the account again.

Sigh. Not sure what I expected on the forums, but I guess this is what I should have bargained for. Was looking for some help on how to escalate a refund request or at least deal with somebody who could hear me out on my customer service question, and ended up with a lecture on credit card chargebacks and the definition of fraud (adorable as I work in legal... for a credit card company).

Quick tip - you can file a chargeback request with your issuer for reasons other than unauthorized transactions, including if the merchant refuses to honour a refund request. Maybe helpful next time you find yourself in a bind like mine! Also, the legal standard of 'fraud' in pretty much all 'civilized places' is a bit higher than bickering over the refund policy for a $40 software purchase, so rest assured you will not be carted off to jail the next time you get in an argument with your cell phone provider.

Anyhow, thanks for hearing me out, I'm checking out. Have fun out there.

[Hodman]

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

If anybody has any practical guidance on how to get a refund case escalated, I'm all ears.

Once support has given you an answer they will reply the same as the first time.

This kind of issues may be avoidable by doing some research before you buy, like do I meet the minimun requirements? or is it worth to buy early access games?, just to name a couple of examples.

[Moderate my posterior.]

Originally posted by i_am_gram:

Originally posted by Teksura:

You misunderstand. You got plenty of help and answers. They may not have been the answers you wanted to hear and not the result you wanted, but they are correct. that does not make it "not actual help". that just makes it not what you wanted to hear.




Actually, you're a bit off track. If you buy a new pair of jeans and then wear them for a while and bring them back all dirty and ripped from obvious abuse, the store is not going to take them back. They will not take them back because they have obviously been worn. Similar will happen with a T-shirt that has obvious sweat stains in the pits (true story to that example). You can buy a metal file from a home improvement store and bring it back all scratched up from use and they will refuse the refund because it is obviously used.

It's not a question of taking someone at their word. It's a question of what information the retailer has available to them.



When you issue a chargeback, you are telling your bank that the payment was not authorized by you. You are saying that farud has been comitted by someone else by making an unauthorized payment. If this is not the case, then by definition that is an act of fraud on your part, and it is illegal to comit fraud in most civilized places. Part of the SSA which you agreed to allows Steam to lock your account in the event of fradulent activity, which you would be claiming to have occurred. But because they know people lie about this sort of thing, they do give you a period to reverse the chargeback to remove the lock. This is what you would have to do to unlock the account again.

Sigh. Not sure what I expected on the forums, but I guess this is what I should have bargained for. Was looking for some help on how to escalate a refund request or at least deal with somebody who could hear me out on my customer service question, and ended up with a lecture on credit card chargebacks and the definition of fraud (adorable as I work in legal... for a credit card company).

Quick tip - you can file a chargeback request with your issuer for reasons other than unauthorized transactions, including if the merchant refuses to honour a refund request. Maybe helpful next time you find yourself in a bind like mine! Also, the legal standard of 'fraud' in pretty much all 'civilized places' is a bit higher than bickering over the refund policy for a $40 software purchase, so rest assured you will not be carted off to jail the next time you get in an argument with your cell phone provider.

Anyhow, thanks for hearing me out, I'm checking out. Have fun out there.

Nope, they won't cart you off to jail. But it's a good bet they will stop doing business with you. And in Steams case, that means locking the account. You can do your own research but we are telling you what "does" happen in the real world, not the made up world you want to live in.

[dirrtymartini]

Is it possible that your gripe is with the game developer who added the launcher that doesn't close when you exit the game? Or the developer that told Steam to monitor the launcher usage instead of the actual game executable?

And please don't hammer Steam Customer Service with previously denied requests. All you're doing is adding to the substantial ticket queue and harming your fellow Steam users.

[FFL2and3rocks]

The refund policy isn't a satisfaction guarantee.

Go ahead and do a chargeback if you want. You will get your money back, but in exchange, your Steam account will be suspended permanently. You will still be able to play your other games, but that's about it. No more buying games or activating CD keys, among other things.