is steam still a private company?

[kingjames488]

if so what's the point when their gatekept by google?

[Ogami]

Originally posted by davidb11:

Talk about moving the goal posts to another GALAXY.

That is that users whole MO.
Every time you counter their silly argument its like " ACTUALLY see this super specifc and narrow example that has nothing to do with the mainstream or situation overall that shows i am right".

The goalposts usually end up somewhere in the Atlantic with them.

[BJWyler]

Originally posted by davidb11:

Very small groups of people do not count here.
You're being beyond silly if you think 9 people, or maybe a few more working in their basement on their own, out of 8 BILLION matter at all for the sake of this.

Talk about moving the goal posts to another GALAXY.

Well, when there's no valid counter argument to be made, grasping as pedantic straws is all one has. I used to write commands in BASIC. That doesn't mean BASIC still isn't an all but dead programming language. A previous co worker of mine still wrote programs for DOS just for the heck of it. Doesn't mean DOS is a supported OS.

The sheer desperation of some people to avoid the common process of progressing and upgrading is mind boggling.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

newer versions of windows offer me 0 benefit at this point other than being able to run things that hare arbitrarily upgraded to require them to run the same thing that ran on what I already have...

this is becoming a worrying trend with games also where everyone expects constant updates and is fine with renting the privilege to partake as opposed to owning a product that they payed for.

when your possessions are constantly "upgrading" themselves to no longer function there's a HUGE problem.

It's a trend that literally started when the tech industry began. This is not new, this is not extraordinary, but this is how we move technology forward instead of remaining stagnant.

The same can be said for a lot of tech.
Why not continue supporting 8", 5 25", and 3.5" floppy disks?
Why not continue to support Windows 3.0, 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, Me, and XP?
Why not continue to support DOS?
Why not continue to support Parallel and Serial connections?
Why not continue to support the original PS, XBox, and the Intellivision?
Why not continue to support 16 and 32 bit computing?
Why not continue to support the Aquarius?
Why not continue to support tape reels, punch cards, and tape drives?
Why not continue to support SCSI and 28k baud modems?

I don't particularly like forced obsolescence, but I also realize that attempting to support old tech and software into perpetuity is patently ridiculous. I would love to still be able to use Windows 98 and XP today as I do any current OS and PC. That's simply not realistic, however.

Windows 7 time has come and gone, just like all those techs I mentioned. The time of the gas guzzler is gone. The time for the electric hybrid is here.

[kingjames488]

Originally posted by aiusepsi:

Someone looking for a vulnerability in Windows 11 may well discover that the same vulnerability exists in older versions of Windows. For example: CVE-2023-21774, which is an elevation of privilege vulnerability: it allows code running with 'user' rights to upgrade itself to 'system' rights.

it also requires that you run such code on your machine... which is much easier to do if everything is always loading active elements on it's own >.>

seems to me like modern browsers are more of a security risk than old OS... they're essentially passing off their vulnerabilities onto the OS's security.

addendum: it's kinda like actual windows in peoples homes... a window is inherently insecure. so some people feel the need to put bars on their windows... and some insurance companies probably even require people to have bars on their windows or they'll be uninsured...

not everyone wants to live in a cage.

[davidb11]

Very well said, Ogami, and BJWyter

[kingjames488]

Originally posted by BJWyler:

The same can be said for a lot of tech.
Why not continue supporting 8", 5 25", and 3.5" floppy disks?
Why not continue to support Windows 3.0, 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, Me, and XP?
Why not continue to support DOS?
Why not continue to support Parallel and Serial connections?
Why not continue to support the original PS, XBox, and the Intellivision?
Why not continue to support 16 and 32 bit computing?
Why not continue to support the Aquarius?
Why not continue to support tape reels, punch cards, and tape drives?
Why not continue to support SCSI and 28k baud modems?

I don't particularly like forced obsolescence, but I also realize that attempting to support old tech and software into perpetuity is patently ridiculous. I would love to still be able to use Windows 98 and XP today as I do any current OS and PC. That's simply not realistic, however.

Windows 7 time has come and gone, just like all those techs I mentioned. The time of the gas guzzler is gone. The time for the electric hybrid is here.

-floppy drives are still supported AFAIK... that's why you don't see an A: drive on your PC, it's reserved for a floppy drive.
-windows xp is also still supported by many things, including a bunch of games sold on steam
-dos is probably not anymore... but it was part of the boot process of windows for years after it was "obsolete"
- pretty sure they are supported, you've just chosen to purchase a MOBO that lacks the hardware
- my original xbox controller still works... it's kinda become the standard controller supported by windows at this point. anything that was designed to work on an xbox will works on an xbox.
- it's supported through emulation
- because no one knows wtf it is
- reel to reel is making a huge comeback actually... same with records... because they were better.
- again, AFAIK it's not that 28k modems aren't supported, it's that the connections aren't present on the hardware you've chosen to purchase.

obviously there's the issue that there simply isn't anyone who makes these things anymore... but there's a difference between producing something and supporting something.

also as a side note, from what I understand the code OSRS is written in is pretty much a custom version of basic... so even that is still not dead.

[BJWyler]

Originally posted by kingjames488:

-floppy drives are still supported AFAIK... that's why you don't see an A: drive on your PC, it's reserved for a floppy drive.

And yet, not a single computer I have bought in the last 15 years has a floppy drive, nor could I configure a system to include it. Heck, I have a dickens of a time trying to get optical drives as part of a configuration now. Sounds like something that is not supported to me.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

-windows xp is also still supported by many things, including a bunch of games sold on steam

Just because something happens to work on XP doesn't mean XP is supported by any means.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

-dos is probably not anymore... but it was part of the boot process of windows for years after it was "obsolete"
- pretty sure they are supported, you've just chosen to purchase a MOBO that lacks the hardware

Again, that means it's actually not supported.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

- my original xbox controller still works... it's kinda become the standard controller supported by windows at this point. anything that was designed to work on an xbox will works on an xbox.

And my dumpster system still works. Doesn't mean anyone is creating hardware or software for it. It is, what's that word? Oh yeah, unsupported.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

- it's supported through emulation

Emulation exists (and in some cases is illegal) because why? That's right, it's because the tech it is emulating is unsupported.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

- because no one knows wtf it is

Oh, I think there are a few people in these forums that know exactly what I am talking about. But anyway, if "no one knows wft it is", then I am going to take a wild stab that it means its ... wait for it .... unsupported technology!

Originally posted by kingjames488:

- reel to reel is making a huge comeback actually... same with records... because they were better.

Well then, I guess we need only wait another decade or two for Microsoft to make Windows XP 2.0! And better is a subjective term. I love my old, original vinyl, but digital is a hella lot better.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

- again, AFAIK it's not that 28k modems aren't supported, it's that the connections aren't present on the hardware you've chosen to purchase.

Maybe it's just me, but if I can't get hardware that doesn't have the connections to support that technology, and the hardware that I do have from days of yore that does cannot connect to ... well anything that allows it to work, well I consider that unsupported technology. But hey, maybe it's that crazy thing I tend to use called common sense making me think that way.

Originally posted by kingjames488:

obviously there's the issue that there simply isn't anyone who makes these things anymore... but there's a difference between producing something and supporting something.

And that difference would be?
Again, maybe it's me, but when something is no longer supported, things stop being produced for it, so they kinda go hand in hand. But maybe its that silly common sense talking again.

[Dr.Shadowds 🐉]

The point is, there is no "LIFE TIME / FOREVER SUPPORT" when comes to live services for OS's, as overtime things get dropped. Console is the worse place to be for live digtal service, compare to PC, as community make effort to fight the issue, and support on modem hardware using transalation layers, and emulation.

The other fact is old hardware can face issue not getting supported in far future OS if happen to lack driver support, or happen to have issue to giving access to driver to work correction at all. Another issue things become less likely to being made a low demand, as no need by mass due to moving away from said product such as moving from floppy to CD, to DVD, to blu ray, and now we just look towards live digital services.

[kingjames488]

this is getting kinda convoluted, so I'll just address a couple points.

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by kingjames488:

-windows xp is also still supported by many things, including a bunch of games sold on steam

Just because something happens to work on XP doesn't mean XP is supported by any means.

if something says it works on XP and works on XP then that thing supports windows xp? how does it not?

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by kingjames488:

- reel to reel is making a huge comeback actually... same with records... because they were better.

Well then, I guess we need only wait another decade or two for Microsoft to make Windows XP 2.0! And better is a subjective term. I love my old, original vinyl, but digital is a hella lot better.

I mean, they've been plenty of bad OS... maybe you remember them trying to push the windows store in vista then abandoning it for 7 then going back into it... now they're trying to lock the whole OS behind a microsoft account... in a few years they'll do another backstep and release something worth using. either that or more people will end up jumping ship.

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by kingjames488:

obviously there's the issue that there simply isn't anyone who makes these things anymore... but there's a difference between producing something and supporting something.

And that difference would be?
Again, maybe it's me, but when something is no longer supported, things stop being produced for it, so they kinda go hand in hand. But maybe its that silly common sense talking again.

the difference between producing and supporting is more like...
they haven't produced 1985 dollar bills since 1985, so 1985 dollar bills are no longer being produced. but you can still spend your dollar bill from 1985 because it's still supported as legal tender...
as opposed to something like a haypenny which is no longer considered legal tender, or unsupported... so you can't just go spend that.

something being supported isn't really a definitive thing where it's in a state of supported or not supported though, it's kinda relative to the context... (for example, the collector market still supports the haypenny).

[crunchyfrog]

Originally posted by kingjames488:

this is getting kinda convoluted, so I'll just address a couple points.

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Just because something happens to work on XP doesn't mean XP is supported by any means.

if something says it works on XP and works on XP then that thing supports windows xp? how does it not?

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Well then, I guess we need only wait another decade or two for Microsoft to make Windows XP 2.0! And better is a subjective term. I love my old, original vinyl, but digital is a hella lot better.

I mean, they've been plenty of bad OS... maybe you remember them trying to push the windows store in vista then abandoning it for 7 then going back into it... now they're trying to lock the whole OS behind a microsoft account... in a few years they'll do another backstep and release something worth using. either that or more people will end up jumping ship.

Originally posted by BJWyler:

And that difference would be?
Again, maybe it's me, but when something is no longer supported, things stop being produced for it, so they kinda go hand in hand. But maybe its that silly common sense talking again.

the difference between producing and supporting is more like...
they haven't produced 1985 dollar bills since 1985, so 1985 dollar bills are no longer being produced. but you can still spend your dollar bill from 1985 because it's still supported as legal tender...
as opposed to something like a haypenny which is no longer considered legal tender, or unsupported... so you can't just go spend that.

something being supported isn't really a definitive thing where it's in a state of supported or not supported though, it's kinda relative to the context... (for example, the collector market still supports the haypenny).

How does it not when it says it supports it?

Because legally speaking that's not FOR EVER. It's a statement that means "at the point of sale".

[aiusepsi]

Originally posted by kingjames488:

it also requires that you run such code on your machine... which is much easier to do if everything is always loading active elements on it's own >.>

Yeah, to get the code running on your machine in the first place, they'd have to first take advantage of a remote code execution vulnerability (RCE) or trick the user into executing something.

This kind of vulnerability is still very dangerous because if you use an RCE to trick a program into running the attacker's code, that attacking code inherits the privileges of the tricked program. If that program has user-level privileges, there's a limit on the damage it can do. If the attacking code can use a privilege escalation vulnerability to bootstrap itself up to system rights, it's game over, it can do anything it wants to your system. That might be obvious and destructive, or it might be something which silently uses your computer as part of a botnet.

Like I said, that particular vulnerability was just the tip of the iceberg. I just took a quick look at the CVE database and pulled out basically the first thing I saw. The point was to illustrate that even if you assume people aren't going to put in the effort to attack Windows 7 specifically (which is a very big if) vulnerabilities discovered in Windows 10 and 11 have a good chance of being exploitable in 7 as well, and unlike in Windows 10 and 11, those vulnerabilities are never getting fixed.

seems to me like modern browsers are more of a security risk than old OS... they're essentially passing off their vulnerabilities onto the OS's security.

The code you really have to be careful about for risk of RCEs is any code which in any way accepts or deals with input from untrusted sources. So, anything which deals with the network, or which parses file formats. Which is a description of exactly what browsers do! They talk to servers over the network, and they parse all sorts of data, HTML, CSS, PNG, JPEG, etc.

Browsers deal with this in a belt-and-braces kind of way. They try to make sure that their code is as safe as possible and resilient to the usual ways that these things can go wrong, but they also lock down and sandbox their code as much as possible so that even if something does go wrong, that the blast radius is as contained as possible.

They do this sandboxing by utilising features built into the OS. Enforcing security boundaries is an important part of what the OS does. So, Google Chrome, for instance, tells the OS that it shouldn't be allowed to create any new processes, or that unsigned code shouldn't be allowed to be loaded into their processes. Then, if Chrome is taken over by an RCE, the attacker can't do those things either. Note the obvious reason that Chrome can't sandbox itself without the support of the OS: you can't enforce unbreakable rules on yourself.

Many of the OS features Chrome uses for those kinds of sandbox hardening are not available in earlier versions of Windows. For example, SetProcessMitigationPolicy[learn.microsoft.com] is only available starting in Windows 8.

Browsers aren't the only kind of thing which can have vulnerabilities in, though. Valve just put out a patch for L4D2 which fixed an RCE, for example. An RCE in a game having access to lots of unpatched vulnerabilities in the OS to exploit to entirely take over your system is bad news.

addendum: it's kinda like actual windows in peoples homes... a window is inherently insecure. so some people feel the need to put bars on their windows... and some insurance companies probably even require people to have bars on their windows or they'll be uninsured...

not everyone wants to live in a cage.

Doors are also inherently insecure, which is why people put locks on their doors. I imagine you probably don't leave the house with your front door left unlocked.