Developers are just straight up abusing these "Game Fests" for their "demos"

[DONAR]

Does anyone remember when you'd buy game magazines which had CD's in them with demos to play? It was a small part of a finished game for you to try..

Definition of a game demo:
A game demo is a limited version of a video game that developers release to give players a taste of the full game.

Basically almost all the "demos" you can try during these Steam Game Fests are pre-alpha, massively underdeveloped super early test stage "games" that in no way shape or form should be allowed as demos.

How are you supposed to find actual demos and possibly actual potential new games for you, if you have to dig through a pile of garbage first? What's the point?

[DONAR]

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

I'm just baffled how almost nobody understands that the example with the demo CD's with magazines is rethorical.

The point is, that demos once used to be a vertical slice of a FINISHED GAME, that you could test, to see if you'd enjoy it or not.

What you get during these Steam fests however, are just tons of pre-alpha "we just need game testers" type of "demos" that don't give you any idea of what the actual game might be, because they are so early and rough that they are literally only good for testing.

Cause, again, demos are marketing tools.

Back then with the magazines, now with the next fests.

It shows you never understood that.

You want to market something by presenting it from its best side. So you cannot tell me that anyone would use something that is completely unfinished and filled with bugs for marketing.

[crunchyfrog]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Cause, again, demos are marketing tools.

Back then with the magazines, now with the next fests.

It shows you never understood that.

You want to market something by presenting it from its best side. So you cannot tell me that anyone would use something that is completely unfinished and filled with bugs for marketing.

You absolutely can - but it depends how you present it. If it's up front then yes, absolutely.

Are you aware of the concept of Kickstarter?

There are things offered on there WITHOUT ANYTHING on substance.

[wesnef]

Again, not sure what demos you've been trying, OP, but the ones I've done have been just as good as the ones I played back on the day on my PS1 & 2 OPM discs. /shrug

Escrito originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Are you aware of the concept of Kickstarter?

There are things offered on there WITHOUT ANYTHING on substance.

And even when they do have really good info/plans/substance, they can still go wrong. Software development isn't like book or tabletop game publishing - you can't ever be sure that you won't run into a Big Problem and that your six-month roadmap to final release won't turn into 2 years of re-coding. Ending in failure, because you don't have the funds for two years of recoding.

(which is why the only two Kickstarters I've backed, have been tabletop games. 7th Citadel and it's expansion.)

[crunchyfrog]

Escrito originalmente por wesnef:

Again, not sure what demos you've been trying, OP, but the ones I've done have been just as good as the ones I played back on the day on my PS1 & 2 OPM discs. /shrug

Escrito originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Are you aware of the concept of Kickstarter?

There are things offered on there WITHOUT ANYTHING on substance.

And even when they do have really good info/plans/substance, they can still go wrong. Software development isn't like book or tabletop game publishing - you can't ever be sure that you won't run into a Big Problem and that your six-month roadmap to final release won't turn into 2 years of re-coding. Ending in failure, because you don't have the funds for two years of recoding.

(which is why the only two Kickstarters I've backed, have been tabletop games. 7th Citadel and it's expansion.)

Precisely.

I never understand why some people make claims like these about games and seem to be either unaware how anything else in the world exists, or are being disingenious. Because gaming doesn't occur in a vacuum.

There are plenty of other things sold this way.

Bespoke furniture, engineering, any craft, and so on.

Whenever I've had to build an amp for someone they've given me a brief spec and left the rest to me. That's the same.

[DONAR]

Escrito originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

You want to market something by presenting it from its best side. So you cannot tell me that anyone would use something that is completely unfinished and filled with bugs for marketing.

You absolutely can - but it depends how you present it. If it's up front then yes, absolutely.

Are you aware of the concept of Kickstarter?

There are things offered on there WITHOUT ANYTHING on substance.

Exactly. You can tell people they'll be kickstarting a gold pooping donkey.. But nobody will know until it's actually out. Which is literally what I had said.. that it's all about the presentation.

Therefore Kickstarter is the complete opposite of a pre-alpha unfinished and buggy "demo". So I'm not sure what your point is.

[Crazy Tiger]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

I said LESS, not BETTER demos.

Something that has been tested and bug fixed and is feature complete is by default already better.

So in that case, less demos of completed games, rather than more demos of uncompleted games would mean better.

Oh sweet summer child, a "finished" game does not mean in any way "tested, bug fixed and featuyre complete".

I've seen "alpha" demos that were in better state than "finished" games, lol.

[Crazy Tiger]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Cause, again, demos are marketing tools.

Back then with the magazines, now with the next fests.

It shows you never understood that.

You want to market something by presenting it from its best side. So you cannot tell me that anyone would use something that is completely unfinished and filled with bugs for marketing.

No, the marketing aspect is getting the name out. As always has been the main purpose of demos. They got included on demo discs for exposure, not to show "the best side".

Demos in the past that showed "the best side" of the games also resulted in people playing the demos and not purchasing the game. there were whole communities around multiplayer demos of Medal of Honor games, Unreal tournament, etc.

But hey, I get it, you want to project your own reasoning on how the world works. Reality is different, but that's ok.

[crunchyfrog]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por crunchyfrog:

You absolutely can - but it depends how you present it. If it's up front then yes, absolutely.

Are you aware of the concept of Kickstarter?

There are things offered on there WITHOUT ANYTHING on substance.

Exactly. You can tell people they'll be kickstarting a gold pooping donkey.. But nobody will know until it's actually out. Which is literally what I had said.. that it's all about the presentation.

Therefore Kickstarter is the complete opposite of a pre-alpha unfinished and buggy "demo". So I'm not sure what your point is.

No it isn't.

On Kickstarter there's plenty of examples of people first giving money basically for a promise and not much else.

But they can often receive an early demo or promo and it can indeed be a buggy mess. There's plenty of examples of this. You are made aware in such cases these are promo items and are subject to change.

That's exactly how it works.

Back when I worked for magazines, I would sometimes get games under this premise too. I would even have hardware under this premise too.

So that's the point - I think you're either ignoring this point or missing it.

[DONAR]

Escrito originalmente por wesnef:

Again, not sure what demos you've been trying, OP, but the ones I've done have been just as good as the ones I played back on the day on my PS1 & 2 OPM discs. /shrug

Well, for example, it was Battlefield Commander WWII Demo, Small Kingoms Demo & Platoon Commander Demo. All of these seemed were more like school projects, rather than game demos.

[IFIYGD]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

That's exactly what I'd want. Quality instead of quantity.

Says the person with almost 5900 hours in... War Thunder.
OP- I think your idea of what "quality" may be very different than mine and many other peoples' definition of the word.

[DONAR]

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Something that has been tested and bug fixed and is feature complete is by default already better.

So in that case, less demos of completed games, rather than more demos of uncompleted games would mean better.

Oh sweet summer child, a "finished" game does not mean in any way "tested, bug fixed and featuyre complete".

Typically this is exactly what that means.

[DONAR]

Escrito originalmente por IFIYGD:

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

That's exactly what I'd want. Quality instead of quantity.

Says the person with almost 5900 hours in... War Thunder.
OP- I think your idea of what "quality" may be very different than mine and many other peoples' definition of the word.

What does that have to do with anything? WT is not a bad game, and it has a ton of content, although there's a lot I dislike about it and would want to change, but that's not the topic.

[crunchyfrog]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Oh sweet summer child, a "finished" game does not mean in any way "tested, bug fixed and featuyre complete".

Typically this is exactly what that means.

No it isn't.

Please dmeonstrate legally where that says that.

I'll look at this because I used to do consumer law in my charity so if you can find something I've missed I'll be all over it.

[Crazy Tiger]

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Oh sweet summer child, a "finished" game does not mean in any way "tested, bug fixed and featuyre complete".

Typically this is exactly what that means.

You are new to the gaming industry, I see.

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

Escrito originalmente por IFIYGD:

Says the person with almost 5900 hours in... War Thunder.
OP- I think your idea of what "quality" may be very different than mine and many other peoples' definition of the word.

What does that have to do with anything? WT is not a bad game, and it has a ton of content, although there's a lot I dislike about it and would want to change, but that's not the topic.

It's part of the topic since you talk about "quality". What you deem "quality" is different from others.

I actually did try 2 of the demos you mentioned in one of your last posts and I don't agree that they're "school projects". That's just nonsense.

[DONAR]

Escrito originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

Escrito originalmente por DONAR:

You want to market something by presenting it from its best side. So you cannot tell me that anyone would use something that is completely unfinished and filled with bugs for marketing.

No, the marketing aspect is getting the name out. As always has been the main purpose of demos. They got included on demo discs for exposure, not to show "the best side".

Demos in the past that showed "the best side" of the games also resulted in people playing the demos and not purchasing the game. there were whole communities around multiplayer demos of Medal of Honor games, Unreal tournament, etc.

But hey, I get it, you want to project your own reasoning on how the world works. Reality is different, but that's ok.

Idk what you are smoking or how you drifted off into whatever discussion you're in right now, but it has literally nothing to do with my original point anymore.