There's no point to buying anything on Steam anymore when Denuvo is a thing

[.]

It's quite honestly killed my love of PC games and killed my anticipation for any game coming out on Steam. I'm tired of being punished for being a paying consumer with performance hits to the games I buy, on top of having to check in with servers which have no guarantee of being up for my game purchase to be considered "valid".

Why won't Valve just ban third party DRM from being on Steam already?

[JVC]

The more would-be pirates whine about Denuvo, the more people will begin supporting making DRM a lot toughter to circumvent. Buy the games and play them, or don't buy them and don't play. Simple.

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von JVC:

The more would-be pirates whine about Denuvo, the more people will begin supporting making DRM a lot toughter to circumvent. Buy the games and play them, or don't buy them and don't play. Simple.

To begin with, it's not productive to support DRM just because some people are whining about Denuvo. DRM can have negative consequences for legitimate users, such as limiting their ability to transfer games between devices, or causing technical issues that prevent them from playing the game they've purchased.

Furthermore, the suggestion that people should simply buy the game or not play it at all oversimplifies the issue. There are a variety of reasons why someone might choose to circumvent DRM, such as wanting to make backups of their games or wanting to modify them in some way.

Ultimately, the decision of whether or not to support DRM is up to each individual consumer, and it's important to weigh the pros and cons before making a decision. However, dismissing concerns about DRM as "whining" is not productive and doesn't further the conversation.

[Tito Shivan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Your assumption that GOG's influence has been insignificant in terms of raising awareness about the issue of DRM is based on the false premises that the DRM situation worsened.

I've never mentioned awareness. I've always talked adoption of DRM.

Awareness of DRM is always a niche anyway.

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Tito Shivan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Your assumption that GOG's influence has been insignificant in terms of raising awareness about the issue of DRM is based on the false premises that the DRM situation worsened.

I've never mentioned awareness. I've always talked adoption of DRM.

Awareness of DRM is always a niche anyway.

I had a bit about adoption of DRM too, which you conveniently omitted from your quote:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Despite that and reputedly being a stronger protection overall, Denuvo's adoption rate is only a fraction of what SecuROM was in the same timespan. 665 in ten years vs 300 for Denuvo.

Of course it's a niche, as was every socio-economic issue... until it wasn't. Therefore, it's important to raise awareness about DRM and engage in discussions about its impact on consumers, developers, and the industry as a whole. Rather than dismissing concerns about DRM as niche, it's important to recognize the broader implications of this issue and work towards finding solutions that are fair and equitable for all parties involved.

[Start_Running]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Start_Running:

One's opinion on copyright law changes depending on whether one has created something that's worth being protected by said law.. Translation. Those who create the media have a different viewfrom those who have only ever consumed the media.

Yes but it's not black and white: owners of intellectual property are not always on the side of DRM just as much as consumers are not always against technological barriers. This is true for books, music, movies and video games, there are many opinions on either side.

Those creators not on the side of DRM...do not use DRM on their works. That's their choice. But those who wish to have some protection

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Start_Running:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Yes but it's not black and white: owners of intellectual property are not always on the side of DRM just as much as consumers are not always against technological barriers. This is true for books, music, movies and video games, there are many opinions on either side.

Those creators not on the side of DRM...do not use DRM on their works. That's their choice. But those who wish to have some protection

Damn, you died in the middle of getting to the point.

[.]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von JVC:

The more would-be pirates whine about Denuvo, the more people will begin supporting making DRM a lot toughter to circumvent. Buy the games and play them, or don't buy them and don't play. Simple.

This operates under the assumption that everyone who is anti-DRM is a pirate. It's the same fallacy that people like a sociopath like Reinhard and the scammed believe. Unfortunately, the consequence comes down to the consumer, rather than the shortsightedness of the CEOs and business owners, who have never written a single line of code or provided a single asset to a game in their life.

We pay for malice and stupidity. That's a single reason to be annoyed, among the many others. I will never understand people who get a high off of human misery for the sake of it.

[Elucidator]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Garbage:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von JVC:

The more would-be pirates whine about Denuvo, the more people will begin supporting making DRM a lot toughter to circumvent. Buy the games and play them, or don't buy them and don't play. Simple.

This operates under the assumption that everyone who is anti-DRM is a pirate. It's the same fallacy that people like a sociopath like Reinhard and the scammed believe. Unfortunately, the consequence comes down to the consumer, rather than the shortsightedness of the CEOs and business owners, who have never written a single line of code or provided a single asset to a game in their life.

We pay for malice and stupidity. That's a single reason to be annoyed, among the many others. I will never understand people who get a high off of human misery for the sake of it.

Its a subject that really depends on where you live as well.

If the legal system in your country ignores actions and reality and prioritizes what is on a document, then it could be seen as criminal simply because the EULA claims you're not allowed bypass, etc.

However, if you live somewhere where they look at what is real and use the laws as base instead, then you have a receipt, they agreed to allow you to play the game with it, and it doesn't matter if the protection is there or not under those circumstances.

The question is, what is that DRM trying to achieve?
Under normal circumstances, its to prevent people from obtaining copies without paying the publisher for them. If you paid for them, court would probably get cranky at the publisher for dragging you there if they do so simply because you turned their DRM off, which isn't even part of the game nor part of what they advertised when you bought the product.

If the DRM is part of an anti-cheat system, then things get tricky.
If its a lootbox/gamble game for example and it expects you to pay real money for virtual items, you're entering a gray zone.
because, they may claim its stealing, but they're not losing anything and you're not even connected to their servers, etc.
like... idk.
You will really need to ask people about it basically. Lawyers, etc.

You can also just ask the publisher; they can check and see on your account that you bought the game.
they may state that its not okay due to the possibility of you spreading copies without the drm or something, but-- like, 'what if' is a dumb reason.

'what if' people go violent? The only way to prevent people from attacking eachother is by locking them all up in an isolated cell.
we don't do that either.
You're asking them for permission, so they should acknowledge from that alone you have no bad intentions for them.

Anyway that would basically be my advise. If you want to patch DRM and have a way to do so, ask the publisher if you could. That way you also uphold (and even customize a bit) your agreement with them.

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Elucidator:

Anyway that would basically be my advise. If you want to patch DRM and have a way to do so, ask the publisher if you could. That way you also uphold (and even customize a bit) your agreement with them.

With most publishers, any hint you've been reverse engineering their property is at best a good way to get a cease and desist. 2K once sent armed goons to investigate a security matter at the home of a youtuber.

I'm not usually one for strong words but If dystopian sci-fi novels got something right is that a lot of those top level executives in highly competitive, results-oriented corporations are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ psychos.

[Realigo Actual]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nx Machina:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Actual Sprinkle Taters:

I remember a bunch of times watching forum experts talk about how it didn't impact performance.

No more hard reboots, Harley :(((

Does it impact performance or is that just on your PC?

Secondly no one need to be a forum expert or otherwise to express fact based on their own experience when playing a game with Denuvo and NOT having performance issues. For me that game is Deathloop.

It's certainly not how well read you are on the matter.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nx Machina:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Garbage:

Less affirmation and more pointing out that your belief system, which is to say, that companies should have the right to treat only paying customers as criminals, is counterproductive and malicious, especially when using confirmation bias to back your claim and defend a corporation who uses scam tactics and populism to win over the uninformed game publishers who buy into it. Especially since rather than address my point directly, you pointed to a rule of the forums which was devoid of context of the original ruling.

The wonderful thing about a belief system is that we can all have our own due to freewill and can express it.

Secondly you should read the eula rather than just install a game. The End User Licence Agreement because you are licenced a product you are not sold it.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Garbage:

Seems the thread is being attacked by malicious individuals again who have no idea as to what the end result of their defense of a scam brings. I'm not surprised, especially since humanity thrives on malice over goodwill and solidarity against a common enemy to games posterity and performance.

Malicious individuals? You mean people with a differing opinion expressing it on a public discussion forum that disagree with you.

I can get you a sweet deal on a big box of question marks. Top-grade stuff.

[CEO OF XXX]

DRM, losing access to games because they blocking your OS, invasive kernel-level anti-cheat, annoying third-party launchers... so many unfriendly anti-consumer practices...

[[N]ebsun]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von #SaveWindows7&8Users:

DRM, losing access to games because they blocking your OS, invasive kernel-level anti-cheat, annoying third-party launchers... so many unfriendly anti-consumer practices...

These are not from Steam though - these are from the developers of those respective games which employ such features.

If you are not able to accept those things, then don't buy the games that have them.

[Realigo Actual]

Hardware-level anti cheat is what we need. The performance impact of these schemes needs to be shifted off the runtime and the OS. And when the vendors know for sure what their platform is, they can do their low-level with no fear of causing failures and crashea. And when you can ban the chip, it gets much more costly to evade.

[Paratech2008]

How is it unique to any other DRM.

We buy licenses that can be "revoked" at any time for any reason.

There have been other gaming sites in the past shut down taking all the games with them.

People purchased digital on consoles and the stores for them has been closed for years...

The 3DS, WiiU, PSP, Vita, Wii, PS3, PS4, they either are or eventually will have their stores closed and the digital software will die with the hardware.

Valve could shutdown and everyone lose their games, it's unlikely, but when you agree to the EULA, that's mentioned.

[.]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Paratech2008:

How is it unique to any other DRM.

We buy licenses that can be "revoked" at any time for any reason.

There have been other gaming sites in the past shut down taking all the games with them.

People purchased digital on consoles and the stores for them has been closed for years...

The 3DS, WiiU, PSP, Vita, Wii, PS3, PS4, they either are or eventually will have their stores closed and the digital software will die with the hardware.

Valve could shutdown and everyone lose their games, it's unlikely, but when you agree to the EULA, that's mentioned.

False equivalence to everything else that's been talked about in reports and in this thread.