Paid Extended support for Windows 7\8\8.1

[Xasthur]

Before getting into the discussion, a few simple questions.

If you had the opportunity to get extended support for legacy operating systems, then:

- Are you ready to pay for it and for how long?
- Do you understand and unconditionally accept all the risks of using outdated software? Do you accept Valve's full disclaimer in case of theft (or damage) of any your personal data / account / in-game "digital assets"?

Either way, it's quite clear that Valve, at this stage of development, has absolutely no motivation to support legacy operating systems. For developers, this is just an additional headache.

It is also likely that users of older operating systems are the least active and generate the least income, as they do not buy modern games and do not spend money on purchases of in-game items.

So, one option that could at least somehow change this situation for both sides would be the introduction of paid support for legacy systems (in some form of an annual subscription).

-------------

But, at the same time, looking at this situation, the user may naturally have the following questions:

- How did it come to the fact that Valve has such a direct dependence on Google?
- Why Valve hasn't created their own browser engine/framework for all the years of Steam's existence?
- From the point of view of the quality of the final product, is the use of CEF really justified?
- Why Valve can't just take any Steam distribution from 2010-2023 as a basis and create a separate build for older systems?
- Why -no-browser mode support was removed from Steam in December 2022, if it was known in advance that legacy systems wouldn't work without it?
- Is Valve really ready to lose about 2.5 million users?
- Wouldn't it be better to just move to Windows 10/11? (Especially I would suggest paying close attention to absolutely harmless LTSC\IoT versions, if you have such an opportunity)

[Brian9824]

Microsoft already had paid support for several years for big companies, they are stopping it now as its not worth their time and energy anymore...

Windows 7 support ended on January 14th 2020, and Microsoft offered 3 years of extended support at a cost to everyone who needed it (Steam was probably one of them).

Its now ended as Microsoft won't continue it even if people are willing to pay anymore, thus companies have no choice but to phase it out
https://www.securityweek.com/windows-7-extended-security-updates-windows-81-reach-end-support/

[aiusepsi]

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- How did it come to the fact that Valve has such a direct dependence on Google?

In around 2010, they needed a new browser engine to display the Steam store (and a couple of other things) to replace the embedded Internet Explorer view they'd be using up to that point, because a) it sucked, b) they were going to release Mac and Linux versions of Steam where IE wasn't available. Embedded Chromium was (and still is) the only reasonable choice. Firefox doesn't really embed well.

- Why Valve hasn't created their own browser engine/framework for all the years of Steam's existence?

Browser engines are incredibly large and complex things. There's only really three: Chrome, Firefox and Safari. Even Microsoft has given up trying to make their own, and Chrome itself started as a Safari fork.

Valve's tried twice to make their own UI systems/frameworks for Steam: VGUI and Panorama. The fact that they're both being (or have been) replaced in Steam shows that they didn't meet Valve's goals for the Steam UI.

- From the point of view of the quality of the final product, is the use of CEF really justified?

Yeah, probably.

- Why Valve can't just take any Steam distribution from 2010-2023 as a basis and create a separate build for older systems?

The client needs to be compatible with any new Steamworks APIs and with the Steam backend servers. Old Steam builds won't support new Steamworks APIs, so new games which use those new APIs won't work. Likewise, any update to the Steam server backend could introduce an incompatibility with old clients.

People have already run headlong into these sorts of problems by running old Steam clients which have been forced to not download any client updates. Often they misinterpret this as Valve being malicious in some way by deliberately breaking them, but it's really just that compatibility between multiple versions of systems only works when people are actively putting in the work to keep them compatible.

- Why -no-browser mode support was removed from Steam in December 2022, if it was known in advance that legacy systems wouldn't work without it?

Can't claim to speak for Valve, but, I would guess, their ongoing overhaul of the Steam UI is more important to them than maintaining endless legacy compatibility. The UI elements replaced in the overhaul need the browser to work. In the near(ish) future as more components are replaced, even if they did leave -no-browser in, it'd leave you with a Steam client which was very very broken.

- Is Valve really ready to lose about 2.5 million users?

Yeah. Although it probably won't be that many. This is not their first rodeo in dropping support for old OSes.

[Brian9824]

Not to mention all the other stores a re stopping support of windows 7 as well, so same thing that happened with windows XP, 95,98, etc. Those 2.5 million users will update, a few people will whine, and things will go on as usual.

By Dec 2023, the number of Windows 7 users will probably be closer to .5%.

[xBCxRangers]

I'd pay for it, i mean it has to be rational, but i'd do it. I need my Mount and Blade Warband Revolutionary War mod lol.

[Elucidator]

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- Are you ready to pay for it and for how long?
- Do you understand and unconditionally accept all the risks of using outdated software? Do you accept Valve's full disclaimer in case of theft (or damage) of any your personal data / account / in-game "digital assets"?

I wouldn't. I am using an outdated OS (as people would call it) amd I don't want Valve to continue on outdated software and carry the risks.
I rather see people update (including my own lazy self), than them trying to force Valve to support an outdated system.

But---
First: The problem isn't the OS, it is Chrome, and so its Google. The browser isn't supposed to be able to make your PC execute every code, if a site contains a specific pattern of code, it should be blocked by the browser, rather than rely on the OS to intervene.

Second. Instead of Chromium, I rather see a VGUI based launcher that just does download and let me play games, rather than the added online nonsense of friendslist, overlay, etc.
Store, buying stuff, should be done through my up-to-date default browser imo. (friendslist, forums, etc too)

What I mainly disagree on is the Chromium bloated, ram/process eaty, client software as such. I don't think that all the chromium integration is nessecary nor even secure on their backend. I think minimizing the client would result in better security for Valve as well.
(and by coincidence it would allow the program to run on older systems)
... but like, even if they use chromium and such, its still a 32bit app. I wonder when they will move to 64bit.
and I also wonder about the Steam Client Service, as well as how they bypass the UAC to get you to install stuff into program files by default. There are as such other questionable decisions they did... xd

If I had a vast amount of wealth and could pay for it, I would at the very least ask Valve why and if they're willing, by my bills to look for better alternatives. (and at the very least remove the dependancy on google, which is dumb imo.)

Originally posted by Xasthur:

But, at the same time, looking at this situation, the user may naturally have the following questions:

I'll share my thoughts on this:

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- How did it come to the fact that Valve has such a direct dependence on Google?

Laziness. Its just something 'everyone does'. Its kinda like business suits at this point.
Google controls the internet basically.

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- Why Valve hasn't created their own browser engine/framework for all the years of Steam's existence?

That is expensive and they need then to implement features every other company uses, features Google developed, which means they would still in a way rely on that framework.
There is no garantee that other companies will implement Steam's own browser features basically.

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- From the point of view of the quality of the final product, is the use of CEF really justified?

No. Its just "everyone does it".

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- Why Valve can't just take any Steam distribution from 2010-2023 as a basis and create a separate build for older systems?

Good question.

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- Why -no-browser mode support was removed from Steam in December 2022, if it was known in advance that legacy systems wouldn't work without it?

Because they need to enable chromium more and more... which maybe the answer to the last question, but... for what reason indeed? It probably has to do with tracking and Google, maybe even ads. I don't get the phone integration either.

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- Is Valve really ready to lose about 2.5 million users?

They won't. I don't think people will stop using Steam. People do not like making changes and they will follow the rest of the herd like sheep. Only very few of that group 'might' drop Steam. (till they have a new computer)

Originally posted by Xasthur:

- Wouldn't it be better to just move to Windows 10/11? (Especially I would suggest paying close attention to absolutely harmless LTSC\IoT versions, if you have such an opportunity)

I'd say it is best to move away from Microsoft, otherwise you get the same kind of abuse from Microsoft as Google already does. They become too powerful.
That said, do use Bing to mess with Google. xd

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by xBCxRangers:

I'd pay for it, i mean it has to be rational, but i'd do it. I need my Mount and Blade Warband Revolutionary War mod lol.

You THINK you would. Cheaper to buy a new PC then to do it...

[mdesaleah]

Nah, I wouldn’t pay for something that should be default and is only being changed so Valve can add pointless browser extras to a game launcher.

GOG has no restrictions, and even Epic doesn’t do this

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

Nah, I wouldn’t pay for something that should be default and is only being changed so Valve can add pointless browser extras to a game launcher.

GOG has no restrictions, and even Epic doesn’t do this

Gog actually already disabled windows 7 with their client well before Steam is doing so, and EPIC is starting this month to phase out support for windows 7. Epic is starting with no longer allowing anyone running windows 7 to use Fortnite. Exepct to see it move to their store in the next few months as every other site is doing the same.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by nullable:

Originally posted by xBCxRangers:

I'd pay for it, i mean it has to be rational, but i'd do it. I need my Mount and Blade Warband Revolutionary War mod lol.

Problem is your idea of rational is a one time cost of $4.99 and you're gonna argue that $4.99 x 3 million people is 15 million dollars or something.

The other reality is what people say they will do, versus what they actually do is often two different things.

If you're not willing to spend money on a modern system, you're probably not actually willing to spend money on extended support.

The cost for the ESU is actually $50 and it doubles every year. So for support at year 4 (which is where we are now) it would be $400 for 1 year of support per device. Then year 2 would be $800. So yeah cheaper to buy a new PC. Microsoft does NOT want to support it, hence why they do the pricing the way they do.

[xBCxRangers]

Originally posted by brian9824:

Originally posted by xBCxRangers:

I'd pay for it, i mean it has to be rational, but i'd do it. I need my Mount and Blade Warband Revolutionary War mod lol.

You THINK you would. Cheaper to buy a new PC then to do it...

Dude, after all this, i'd have to be nuts to invest anything more in pc gaming. And it's just not this matter either. I could give a litany of bad business practice by this company .Consoles is where i'm staying, for good.

But for the games i have now, it would be worth it to pay a small subscription.

[Lystent]

Originally posted by brian9824:

Originally posted by xBCxRangers:

I'd pay for it, i mean it has to be rational, but i'd do it. I need my Mount and Blade Warband Revolutionary War mod lol.

You THINK you would. Cheaper to buy a new PC then to do it...

I bought some "POS"s for around 200 USD. have to stick with XP era games on those for optimum performance, even though some do not work too with on win 7+. I've also built a couple of budget "do everything I throw at it" computers. First one was 1k USD, but that was before a chip crisis, crypto boom, and the whole RTX nonsense. My latest build was around 1.5k USD. Oh, and if I did not have the kit for win 10 from the first computer, then the second would've had to have win 11 whilst it wasn't quite ready yet (by the sounds of it).

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Lystent:

Originally posted by brian9824:

You THINK you would. Cheaper to buy a new PC then to do it...

I bought some "POS"s for around 200 USD. have to stick with XP era games on those for optimum performance, even though some do not work too with on win 7+. I've also built a couple of budget "do everything I throw at it" computers. First one was 1k USD, but that was before a chip crisis, crypto boom, and the whole RTX nonsense. My latest build was around 1.5k USD. Oh, and if I did not have the kit for win 10 from the first computer, then the second would've had to have win 11 whilst it wasn't quite ready yet (by the sounds of it).

Computer prices have dropped significantly in the last year or so. The crypto crash has really brought down the prices.

[xBCxRangers]

Originally posted by brian9824:

Originally posted by Lystent:

I bought some "POS"s for around 200 USD. have to stick with XP era games on those for optimum performance, even though some do not work too with on win 7+. I've also built a couple of budget "do everything I throw at it" computers. First one was 1k USD, but that was before a chip crisis, crypto boom, and the whole RTX nonsense. My latest build was around 1.5k USD. Oh, and if I did not have the kit for win 10 from the first computer, then the second would've had to have win 11 whilst it wasn't quite ready yet (by the sounds of it).

Computer prices have dropped significantly in the last year or so. The crypto crash has really brought down the prices.

Dropped? They want 1500 dollars for a computer that was only 700 a year ago. And for what? This? That when you have a problem with a game, you''re at the whim of some deregulated whorehouse? Play Ge Force Now for free.

[Lystent]

Originally posted by brian9824:

Originally posted by Lystent:

I bought some "POS"s for around 200 USD. have to stick with XP era games on those for optimum performance, even though some do not work too with on win 7+. I've also built a couple of budget "do everything I throw at it" computers. First one was 1k USD, but that was before a chip crisis, crypto boom, and the whole RTX nonsense. My latest build was around 1.5k USD. Oh, and if I did not have the kit for win 10 from the first computer, then the second would've had to have win 11 whilst it wasn't quite ready yet (by the sounds of it).

Computer prices have dropped significantly in the last year or so. The crypto crash has really brought down the prices.

IDK about significantly TBH. I just did a quick search on the price of my graphics card, and it hasn't went down much.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Lystent:

Originally posted by brian9824:

Computer prices have dropped significantly in the last year or so. The crypto crash has really brought down the prices.

IDK about significantly TBH. I just did a quick search on the price of my graphics card, and it hasn't went down much.

depends, which card? If you want top of the line you always pay a premium. I'm mostly referring to bundled builds that you can usually find good deals, especially around the major sales like Black Friday.

Still cheaper then paying $1200 just for 2 years of support though