Region Locking and the Community's feedback.

[Archie]

EDIT: This has been changed by valve. Now, the mere restriction is that these games can only be added to your library if you're in the country with the currency you're paying with.

[crunchyfrog]

Първоначално публикувано от Satoru:

Първоначално публикувано от Protoss:

There should be no more illegal activation restrictions, i.e. such between countries that are in a free trade zone (such as EU countries and Germany).

Activation restrictions are not illegal nor a violation of free trade zones.

Having a region lock on buying is one thing, but please keep international law in mind when creating the restrictions, especially including free trade agreements!

Except when doing so would be a violatino of local laws, such as Germany's censorship laws.

Something that is sold in an EU state must work in all EU states.

That's not what the free trade agreements between EU states means or even implies. The fact that Ireland/Uk use entirely different electrical plugs than the rest of the EU means by definition, those products would be in violation of this supposed 'law'.

Well put Satoru.

There seems to be a fair bit confusion about this free trade agreement, so thanks for some good persepective.

[Frugal Economist]

I don't know what's going on, but I work and live in two~three different countries. Suddenly I can no longer buy any games, add a payment method, nor use my steam wallet credits...

[DanTheKraut]

Even Microsoft und Sony refused to integrate a regionlock for their XBox One and PS4 because they know it is BS only Steam and Nintendo use regionlocks.

Honest customers have to deal with regionlocks... not so honest "customers" don't have that problem...

[Τhe Rolling Cheese Wheel]

Първоначално публикувано от DanTheKraut:

Even Microsoft und Sony refused to integrate a regionlock for their XBox One and PS4 because they know it is BS only Steam and Nintendo use regionlocks.

Honest customers have to deal with regionlocks... not so honest "customers" don't have that problem...

Probably because region locking a disk makes no sense. Games in different regions on the consoles have virtually no price benefits. Meanwhile games on steam are substantially cheaper in many regions. Steam didn't use to have region locks, it wasn't until people demanded localization and fair pricing did steam implemented such region locks.

Now we have regions where games are expensive and where games are cheap, so devs implemented region lock to prevent trading from profitting madly off their work.

[Satoru]

Първоначално публикувано от DanTheKraut:

Even Microsoft und Sony refused to integrate a regionlock for their XBox One and PS4 because they know it is BS only Steam and Nintendo use regionlocks.

Region locking of PHYSICAL MEDIA on consoles isn't necessary because the 'problem' it was trying to solve no longer exists. Region locking on consoles was designed to prevent grey market leakage of games into regions where the game wasn't released. Given taht Europe was commonly several MONTHS before a game was released tehre, PHYSICAL grey market leakage was a concern.

This basically doesn't exist now that games effectively are doing simultaneous world wide releases for everything.

Now try buying something on PSN or Xbox live in a region you don't live in.

That's right it doesnt work.

You also cant gift games on PSN or xbox live.

You'd have to remove all gifting on Steam

The region lock for your German games are BECAUSE YOUR LAWS EXIST. Stop pretending otherwise. Because you are solving the wrong problem by yelling at Steam or publishers. YOUR LAWS are to blame. Nothing else. You continue to whine about this yet never actually put the blame where it lies. You rail against publishers and Valve, when YOUR LAWS make them behave that way. If the law did not exist, your 'problem' wouldn't either. Go scream at your law makers.

[Hopper]

This isn't really a steam issue. This is more of a law issue.

[lart]

Първоначално публикувано от Satoru:

Now try buying something on PSN or Xbox live in a region you don't live in.

That's right it doesnt work.

Works like a charm, for years and years.

You also cant gift games on PSN or xbox live.

True.

You'd have to remove all gifting on Steam

So? We just import the games, like we did before Steam existed, while it exists and so on.

The region lock for your German games are BECAUSE YOUR LAWS EXIST. Stop pretending otherwise. Because you are solving the wrong problem by yelling at Steam or publishers. YOUR LAWS are to blame. Nothing else.

Yelling doesn't make your statement more truthful. To say it politely, you're quite uninformed about German youth protection laws and legal means for adults to acquire said content.

You continue to whine about this yet never actually put the blame where it lies. You rail against publishers and Valve, when YOUR LAWS make them behave that way. If the law did not exist, your 'problem' wouldn't either. Go scream at your law makers.

Care to state these laws that require (retroactive) region locks on imported games. (I'm not talking about games that show forbidden symbols - § 86a)

[HLCinSC]

Steam obviously doesn't feel it is worth getting an age verification system for Germany. Steam and its teams of lawyers would love to be able to sell all games to Europe's most dominant economy. If Steam's legal department couldn't figure it out then there is more to the equation than what we are seeing. After all why would they give up on this lucrative market if they didn't feel they have to or that it is worth it. Is there some EU law that prevents them from charging Germans more so they can recoup the cost of real age verification?

[Satoru]

Първоначално публикувано от lart:

So? We just import the games, like we did before Steam existed, while it exists and so on.

The point is that region locking of games is to again lock the grey market leakage because Steam allows gifting. Just like region locking before was used to control grey market leakage. You're missing the entire point as to why ergion locking exists on Steam.

Yelling doesn't make your statement more truthful. To say it politely, you're quite uninformed about German youth protection laws and legal means for adults to acquire said content.

Again NONE of that is relevant. Everyone whining about the cut versions concentrates on the part where 'oh but it's not illegal to own it'. Again publishers do not care. They care about SELLING games. And you can't sell a game if

1) You cant advertise it
2) Stores can't stock it on their shelves.

Ergo they create cut-versions explicity to avoid classification. They region lock it to avoid classification problems.

The laws make the publishers behave this way. Publishers do not care that you can 'own' classified material. If you can't sell it, if you can't advertise it, then it's worthless. Thus they create cut versions.

The LAW makes publishers behave this way. Want a fix? Change your laws.

Care to state these laws that require (retroactive) region locks on imported games. (I'm not talking about games that show forbidden symbols - § 86a)

Those are publisher demands for controlling grey market leakage. A point which is irrelevant to the German cencroship laws and the way classification works. Either you

1) Region lock games to allow game to be sold cheaper in lower income regions to control grey market leakage
2) Don't sell games in regions where games are cheaper
3) Charge a single price globally

No matter what scenario you choose SOMEONE loses. Everyone wants a system that benefits them. But that's not how it works.

[Start_Running]

Първоначално публикувано от ☠ ''empes'' ☠:

technicaly it is anti-conpettative to do so.
but no one ever stops it. capitalism rolls on, deal with it or get out of the way i suppose -shrug-

Region locking? It's not actually.

See every region is allowed to control the products that are sold to it'scitizens. Now aside from the red tape nightmare that is how digfital games are classified and the taxes that apply to them there are also regulartory bodies in countries that determine whether or not the game meets with the countries standards of decency (eg censorship) which means the game must be reviewed and then patched by the publishers and only that particular patch maybe sold in that region because another region may have totally different standards

Heaven help you if you s a publisher sell a game in a region that has banned the product... because let me tell you there are some harsh fines.

Region locking is basically a combination of things imposed by the local jurisdictions of the countries and the publishers. I mean the american version of a game may have profanity that simply will not be akllowed in france. if steam sells this unapproved version in france or allows in to be acquired too easily... well then valve will to pay fines. And if the publisher also got hit with fines thgey can sue Valve for not taking proper steps to prevent it.


Beleive it or not... companies like Valve would be very, very happy if regioning didn't exist... it would simplify their business model and their back end processing ever so much.

[lart]

Първоначално публикувано от Satoru:

The point is that region locking of games is to again lock the grey market leakage because Steam allows gifting. Just like region locking before was used to control grey market leakage. You're missing the entire point as to why ergion locking exists on Steam.

What are you talking about. There is no grey market for games that cannot be run. Gifting doesn't solve this either. This doesn't make no sense.

Again NONE of that is relevant. Everyone whining about the cut versions concentrates on the part where 'oh but it's not illegal to own it'. Again publishers do not care. They care about SELLING games. And you can't sell a game if

1) You cant advertise it
2) Stores can't stock it on their shelves.

Ergo they create cut-versions explicity to avoid classification. They region lock it to avoid classification problems.

Cut and/or censored games are nowadays the minority in Germany. We had two cases recently with censored games due to a doubtful and very old jurisdiction (Wolfenstein and Southpark). Bethesda and especially Ubi could have gone to court and would have probably won. Anyways, please explain why Steam/Publisher are now region locking games that aren't released/sold on the German market?

The laws make the publishers behave this way. Publishers do not care that you can 'own' classified material. If you can't sell it, if you can't advertise it, then it's worthless. Thus they create cut versions.

Or they don't sell it at all in Germany, advertise the game for German buyers so they import it and later region lock it.

The LAW makes publishers behave this way. Want a fix? Change your laws.

There is no law for regionlocking a game that isn't sold in Germany.
Want to fix the jurisdiction about showing swastikas in computer games the publisher has to go to court and not rely on a decade old ruling by a provincial court on some neonazi guy.

Again you're missing the point like everyoen else. Publishers behave this way because they are TERRIFIED of the law. They are TERRIFIED of being classified. Thus they employ measures by which they can avoid any excuse someone in the German government can use as an excuse to classify the game. They behave this way because the consequences of the law effectively kills all sales of a game.

What law are you talking about? The games I'm talking about are not sold in Germany. The games have already been classified. I can legally import them, play them. There is no censored version.

The 'legality' is not the issue. Publishers do not care about what you can 'legally' do. They care about sales.

There are no sales for games which are not sold in Germany, except imports.

[Satoru]

Първоначално публикувано от lart:

What are you talking about. There is no grey market for games that cannot be run. Gifting doesn't solve this either. This doesn't make no sense.

That's because you're confusing the region locking used 'in general' vs the reason it's used in Germany. I am referring to the general usage in that paragraph.

Cut and/or censored games are nowadays the minority in Germany. We had two cases recently with censored games due to a doubtful and very old jurisdiction (Wolfenstein and Southpark). Bethesda and especially Ubi could have gone to court and would have probably won. Anyways, please explain why Steam/Publisher are now region locking games that aren't released/sold on the German market?

And who wants to be 'that guy' who missed the release date in Germany because 'we were in court because we got classified and now we're stuck in German legal quagmires'. Yeah we call that a "Career Limiting Move". You act like goign to court is an actual solution. To publishers that is NOT a solution, because the outcome is uncertain. Making cut versions makes it clear that you will clear classification and can both advertise and sell your game.

Again the law makes publishers behave this way. Because the fear of being classified is the kiss of retail death. There is so much timing and plannign for a big release of a game. Advertising is purchased months in advance of a release date. You suppose that a publisher should risk a MASSIVE amount of pre-paid advertising under the assumption that a court 'may or may not' clear your game of classification? Or are they simply going to make a cut version and be done with it.

Or they don't sell it at all in Germany, advertise the game for German buyers so they import it and later region lock it.

Yeah that worked out well for Halo2 remember that? The governement went after MS for that. Again MS set the prescedent and teh government told all publishers "Try that nonsense and we will destroy you". And you're magically surpsied no one wants to even hint at the possibilty that might happen?

There is no law for regionlocking a game that isn't sold in Germany.
Want to fix the jurisdiction about showing swastikas in computer games the publisher has to go to court and not rely on a decade old ruling by a provincial court on some neonazi guy.

And again why would a publisher want to go to court? When instead they can make a cut version and avoid that problem to begin with. The latter is simpler, and more cost effective and has a 100% certain outcome. You're asking publishers to gamble with their sales because you think 'goign to court' is a viable option.

[Satoru]

Първоначално публикувано от HLCinSC:

Steam obviously doesn't feel it is worth getting an age verification system for Germany. Steam and its teams of lawyers would love to be able to sell all games to Europe's most dominant economy. If Steam's legal department couldn't figure it out then there is more to the equation than what we are seeing. After all why would they give up on this lucrative market if they didn't feel they have to or that it is worth it. Is there some EU law that prevents them from charging Germans more so they can recoup the cost of real age verification?

Also the German Consumer Comission VZVB has some kind of gigantic beef with Steam. Since they seem to want to sue them at every single opportunity they can for whatever they can make up. They'd likely do someting insane like claim that Steam is not 'importing' copies but advertising classified materials directly to German consumers

I can only assume someon in the VZVB is really really really really angry HL3 isn't out yet.

[crunchyfrog]

Първоначално публикувано от DanTheKraut:

Even Microsoft und Sony refused to integrate a regionlock for their XBox One and PS4 because they know it is BS only Steam and Nintendo use regionlocks.

Honest customers have to deal with regionlocks... not so honest "customers" don't have that problem...

Again, you seem to have this silly beef with believing the fault lies with Valve.

Firstly, aside from their OWN products, their hands are tied. The rights owners hold the keys - as someone who professes to know law, this should be obvious to you. Valve CANNOT state region locking, pricing, or any other marketing point on IP they have no right to.

Secondly, I pointed you to the PRECISE German law that explains WHY this issue persists. It IS your government, so if you continue to feel strongly about this issue, lobby them!

[himmatsj]

Първоначално публикувано от Nightenhelser:

Region locks are there so you don't purchase a Korean version of a game and when you go to launch it, you can't understand the language and all the servers you connect to are in Korea.

This is totally false. Language options can exist in a universal version (and they usually do).

Steam servers do not take into account for region locking, so moot point there.