How Steam OS helps Microsoft retain market dominance.

[battlezoby]

SlowMango had posted the following in another thread, but I thought it was such a good question that it deserved this new thread of its own.

SlowMango님이 먼저 게시:

How [is Steam] a 'Microsoft-butt-kissing
company' when they literally developed their own OS based off of Linux for the
Steam Deck?

Among Steam's biggest pro-Microsoft and anti-consumer actions are trying to make it harder for people to load the games they already bought for Windows XP, Vista, and soon Windows 7, 8, and 8.1, and are instead trying to force people to get the new versions of MS-Windows just to keep playing the games they already own.

While SlowMango's question doesn't really speak to that, it does make a good point clearly implying that Steam's Contribution to Steam OS should cast doubt on Steam's being a pro-Microsoft company...

So, the answer to SlowMango is that is that Steam OS isn't so much a completely new OS, but rather in many ways the opposite. Steam's contribution is mostly helping GNU/Linux/Wine to be more compatible with designed-for-Microsoft games than it would be otherwise.(*)

That means there is less incentive for game developers to develop Linux-native games rather than games that use Steam-OS's Microsoft-compatible layer.(*) That means developers are more likely to just be almost or exactly the same game they made for Microsoft Windows.

It also greatly decreases the amount of money that goes into developing Linux-Native games, which, with the help of the open-source community, might actually compete to the point that they might have huge performance and/or other-feature-related improvements over Microsoft-Windows/Mac games. Such improvements would be good (arguably/possibly "great") for the community and bad for Microsoft.

Thanks for asking!

(Of course, )

---

* - I believe "Proton" might be the main element.

Note: The above has been updated at least once in order better address replies to it below.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Almost no one was developing games for native Linux in the first place. So no matter how you want to try and spin it, Steam OS (if and when the new version is released) and Proton have made linux distros MORE viable than they have ever been for gaming, EVER. Period.

Id switch myself if it wasnt for the stupid anti-cheat companies dragging their feet, like Easy AC. bThat might even be a little unfair at this point because I know EAC does support linux now and its the devs of several games I own that refuse to flip the switch so that Linux is supported, or upgrade their EAC version to one that does.

[Crazy Tiger]

OP, do you really think that developers would put more effort in Linux ports if Proton wasn't a thing? Cause no, that wouldn't happen. Proton is a very good thing for gamers who want to use Linux.

That footnote, btw, shows that the aluminium industry is making good money.

[battlezoby]

Crazy Tiger님이 먼저 게시:

OP, do you really think that developers would put more effort in Linux ports if Proton wasn't a thing?

First off all, I think original Linux-native games is an important thing for open-market competition, not just the ports. But...

Yes. Absolutely. No doubt about it whatsoever. Some game developers would put more effort into ports as well. Linux-native ports would be a larger niche market if not for competition from Proton. (Heck, it's hard to imagine how much more innovative Linux other open-source software might have become if not for competition from Wine as well.)

Whether or not the number of Linux-Native games would increase significantly as a percentage of all the games out there is much murkier issues, and in the short term, it probably wouldn't be.

But it's the actual number, quality and popularity of Native-Linux games as an absolute number, rather than a just as percentage, that would help drive open-source game-developer and gamer friendly improvements.

[KalGimpa]

that is crazy

by that thinking

it is the fault of every company that writes for ms only

it not like linux didn't exist before steam was introduced

it was a pain to use and few wanted to use it

even less wanted the couple of other attempts to make a home pc os

ms did it right

battlezoby님이 먼저 게시:

Crazy Tiger님이 먼저 게시:

OP, do you really think that developers would put more effort in Linux ports if Proton wasn't a thing?

First off all, I think original Linux-native games is an important thing for open-market competition, not just the ports. But...

Yes. Absolutely. No doubt about it whatsoever. Some game developers would put more effort into ports as well. Linux-native ports would be a larger niche market if not for competition from Proton. (Heck, it's hard to imagine how much more innovative Linux other open-source software might have become if not for competition from Wine as well.)

Whether or not the number of Linux-Native games would increase significantly as a percentage of all the games out there is much murkier issues, and in the short term, it probably wouldn't be.

But it's the actual number, quality and popularity of Native-Linux games as an absolute number, rather than a just as percentage, that would help drive open-source game-developer and gamer friendly improvements.

the only way devs are going to work on a linux version is if there are enough linux users

that will not happen until people can play on linux and see how good it is for everything else

now they can because steam has gone full on with the deck

maybe enough people will switch to linux and make devs take notice

if that happens,

it will be because steam helped people see the value of linux

[76561199502155650]

im hoping that AMD comes out with its own Operating system that can intergrate both gaming and desktop applications

considering we have AMD Processors and AMD Graphics, a AMD Operating system that would be directly geared towards gaming would be awesome.

i had some issues with steam os install running , but i have no idea what im doing so fail for me, i could keep messing with it but the steam os installer seemed to cause cpu temps to start rising while it did nothing but spin the bios.

I think it would be great for the computer industry to move away from Microsoft monoply in general sense, because it has ruined countless hardware with driver end of life, windows 7 actually allowed users to continue to use many older hardware items from 10 or 20 years ago, which windows 10 will not because those 64 bit drivers don't function with older hardware.

this in itself is part of the world waste we are creating do we all really need new race car game steering wheels because the drivers aren't backwards compatible with new operating systems.

[Start_Running]

battlezoby님이 먼저 게시:

SlowMango had posted the following in another thread, but I thought it was such a good question that it deserved this new thread of its own.

SlowMango님이 먼저 게시:

How [is Steam] a 'Microsoft-butt-kissing
company' when they literally developed their own OS based off of Linux for the
Steam Deck?

Among Steam's biggest pro-Microsoft and anti-consumer actions are trying to make it harder for people to load the games they already bought for Windows XP, Vista, and soon Windows 7, 8, and 8.1, and are instead trying to force people to get the new versions of MS-Windows just to keep playing the games they already own.

Or those people could have just switched to STeamOS and avoided the whole drama.
So basically the fact that people choose to go with the MS windows rathers than Steam OS or Linux is Steam's fault how?

battlezoby님이 먼저 게시:

So, the answer to SlowMango is that is that Steam OS isn't so much a completely new OS, but rather in many ways the opposite. Steam's contribution is mostly helping GNU/Linux/Wine to be more compatible with designed-for-Microsoft games than it would be otherwise.(*)

Its stell an alternative to Windows.

battlezoby님이 먼저 게시:

That means there is less incentive for game developers to develop Linux-native games rather than games that use Steam-OS's Microsoft-compatible layer.(*) That means developers are more likely to just be almost or exactly the same game they made for Microsoft Windows.

There was next to zero incentive to develop native linux games anyway thanks to the next to zero market share linux has. Same reason they don't often develop MACOS native builds because quite frankly that's basically going through the whole development process from scratch AGAIN.. Few if any development studios are going to spend that time and money to get their product such a tiny market share.

battlezoby님이 먼저 게시:

It also greatly decreases the amount of money that goes into developing Linux-Native games, which, with the help of the open-source community, might actually compete to the point that they might have huge performance and/or other-feature-related improvements over Microsoft-Windows/Mac games. Such improvements would be good (arguably/possibly "great") for the community and bad for Microsoft.

And there was as said no impetus to do that anyway since for any game developer the ROI for developing for linux was not attractive enough. Which is kinda why so very few ever do it to begin with buth currently and historically. If anything STEamOS has gotten more people to try out klinux and thusly ever so slightly increased linux's share which makes it just a little more attractive for native development.

[76561199502155650]

i seen alot of forum posts on steam os and mostly its about fixes and not installing right, it would be nice if steam created a easier to use steam os installer for people who are just not very knowledgable about other operating systems.

[KalGimpa]

Please Stop Stalking my Posts님이 먼저 게시:

i seen alot of forum posts on steam os and mostly its about fixes and not installing right, it would be nice if steam created a easier to use steam os installer for people who are just not very knowledgable about other operating systems.

that version has not been updated in a long time

the scuttlebutt is that steam os 3 is coming

it is supposed to be arch based

we are going on steam/valve time

so we do not know when this is supposed to happen

[Start_Running]

Please Stop Stalking my Posts님이 먼저 게시:

im hoping that AMD comes out with its own Operating system that can intergrate both gaming and desktop applications

considering we have AMD Processors and AMD Graphics, a AMD Operating system that would be directly geared towards gaming would be awesome.

There's a difference?
And the problem with AMD developing an OS is that you can bet balls that it'd be geared towards theuir CPU's which is gonna make it less than useful to software developers. IIt'd basically just create an AMD walled garden right next to the Apple Walled garden.

Please Stop Stalking my Posts님이 먼저 게시:

I think it would be great for the computer industry to move away from Microsoft monoply in general sense, because it has ruined countless hardware with driver end of life, windows 7 actually allowed users to continue to use many older hardware items from 10 or 20 years ago, which windows 10 will not because those 64 bit drivers don't function with older hardware.

The fact that you think tghis is a 'COmputer Industry' thing shows you don't really understand the issue. It's an EVERY industry thing.

Software developers write software to run on the OSes that the majority of their prospective clients will be running. Schools train students on machines and systems that they are most likely to be using in the workplace. Workplaces conversely have the machines and software that the bulk of their available workforce would already be trained in.

Thats sort of why Apple had a decades long grip on the graphic arts and creative multi media indusies for decades taht is only now starting to erode.

Its simple business. You develop a product to cater to the needs of yourmarket and if your market is mostly running a particular oS then guess what...

And quite frankly.. its kinda better this way.
The other way was a pain in the arse.

Please Stop Stalking my Posts님이 먼저 게시:

this in itself is part of the world waste we are creating do we all really need new race car game steering wheels because the drivers aren't backwards compatible with new operating systems.

Well the alternative is to develop the new drivers yourself. The simple truth is drivers are very prone to this because they are built to be as optimized and streamlined as possible, and each company tends to have their own way of talking to their own hardware.

If there was more standardization and convergence the problem more or less gets solved which is funnily enough what MS helped establish with their directX API.

This is also why MS maintains a rather high degree of backwards compatability. I can still run Windows 3.0 apps on my current windows 7 machine.

if the industry were more fractured as you seem to want, then this would not be possible and we'd be back to the pre-MS hellscape

[nullable]

battlezoby님이 먼저 게시:

Some game developers would put more effort into ports as well. Linux-native ports would be a larger niche market if not for competition from Proton.

So what stopped the flood of into Linux native ports before Proton?

I think you have a case of wishful thinking. Whenever you think an ongoing issue can be boiled down to, "if not for this one thing, the world would be completely different." You can pretty much guarantee it's a claim made out of laziness, ignorance and a complete lack of expertise on the subjects.

It's never quite that simple. Once you get into the reality of the status quo and why it is, blaming Proton becomes a joke.

So is this lazy ignorance, performance art, straight up trolling? It's often hard to tell between the three.

[battlezoby]

KalCuey님이 먼저 게시:

that is crazy, by that thinking
it is the fault of every company that writes for ms only

I believe an important terms is "Mitigating Circumstances," which is a fancy way to say "Yea, they're wrong, but there are reasons for what they do."

IMO, all companies that primarily help out Microsoft by only developing software for MS are being at least a little bit unethical, whether they know it or not. But on the other hand, Microsoft's illegal and unethical practices have been done in order to make it very hard for them not to do that...

IBTW... I'm talking about the "little guy" not-mind-boggling-rich companies" that isn't making billions of dollars PROFIT like Steam is, and doesn't have over 50% market share in major market (PC gaming) like Steam does, and isn't going out of their way to help Microsoft well above and beyond simply developing software mostly for Microsoft.

In my opinion, since it's so hard to resist using Microsoft, at least for now, I'd argue that it most of them just went through the trouble of being 5% as verbally Anti-Microsoft as I am, it might help push the industry in the right direction. So I'd call that "Mitigating Circumstances".

But Steam is more than a typical company, and they actively do things much worse than that.

Now that politics are allowed on Steam, I'd suggest (as one of many things) that you research why Microsoft was ordered to be broken up, including the part about how they shouldn't force people to use their browser as the default browser.

Then, maybe try to tell your Congressman, Governor, Parliamentary Representative, Lord King Sovereign or whatever that they should try to take a stance on it.

Or maybe try to get them be sure to make or keep "shrink wrap licensing" illegal. "Shrink wrap licensing" means that a company like a Microsoft can actually force you to follow their terms of service, even though all you did is walking into a store and buy a computer with Microsoft installed, because you didn't also sign an actually agreement that way you did on Steam.

Or a whole lot other things. Maybe I'll make a website dedicated to it, and leave off the ads off Steam can't ban for being commercial.

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:

The fact that you think [this] is a 'C[o]mputer Industry' thing shows [that battlezoby doesn't] really understand the issue. It's an EVERY industry thing.

Yea, you're right in that there are similar problems bigger than software, and that the problems with popular software are part of a bigger problem. But I'm taking it one step at a time and trying to focus on what I know best. (See below) [Also, the black box that's in the car I drive that rats me out for speeding is a tangent from "Steam" and towards "Off Topic."]

---

(But I'm unfortinately concentrating on matters a bit closer to home at the moment by trying to remove a local Judge from office. It wouldn't help as many people as fixing the "Microsoft problem", but despite being an uphill battle, I'm hoping it will be an easier thing for me to do.)

[Tito Shivan]

Proton, like Wine in its time is a solution to the problem of devs not caring about providing linux builds for their software.

It's wrong to assume proton is going to make devs to care less into providing linux builds when said care was zero to begin with.

[.EteRnal.]

Tito Shivan님이 먼저 게시:

It's wrong to assume proton is going to make devs care less into providing linux builds when said care was zero to begin with.

[battlezoby]

Tito Shivan님이 먼저 게시:

It's wrong to assume proton is going to make devs to care less into providing linux builds when said care was zero to begin with.

Actually, I think there are hundreds (devils advocate: dozens) of Linux-native builds available on Steam, certainly more than zero. (And expressed as a percentage, infinitely greater than zero.) I believe some Linux fans could help me out with the list if they wanted to.

It's been 20 years since I played many open-source game (on Unix, put pretty sure these was all available on Linux as well,) but...

I liked FreeCiv a lot, and consider a separate game from Civilization because I hate the interface on Civilization but loved FreeCiv.

There was also, Cube, Assault-Cube, Dangen, Glob2, Netpanzer and Sauerbraten.

If I had to "stick up" for two, I'd say Assault-Cube and Glob2 are "real games" with
cool 3D real time play. Heck, many "games" on Steam are just 2D point and clicks
that are far lamer far less deserving of the title of a "Real Game" than they are.

I've made some really interesting additions and improvements to some of them, and in
many ways being able to open source games is a lot my fun than just playing. In
Cube, I added infinite ammo, something the developer said could be done server-side,
but all I did was make my server keep dumping new ammo drops on top the players
everything time they were running low.

At any rate, pretty small list typed quickly, but even SEVEN games is greater than ZERO.
Dozen is greater than zero. The likely many many more Linux-Native games on Steam as
also greater the Zero.

[battlezoby]

Tito Shivan님이 먼저 게시:

Proton, like Wine in its time is a solution to the problem of devs not caring about providing linux builds for their software.

It's wrong to assume proton is going to make devs to care less into providing linux builds when said care was zero to begin with.

Q: Is Globulation 2 available exclusive for Linux / open-source and not available for Ms-Windows? What are Cave-9 and DarkLegion?

Actually, peeking at ProtonDB.com it (ironically) looks like the following games might be real Linux-Native. (Or do ALL of them "cheat" by compiling their own copy of Wine?)

Portal 2, Payday 2, Total War: Warhammer II, DOTA 2,
ARK: Survival Evolved, Left 4 Dead 2, Civilization VI.
Gary's Mod, Don't Starve Together, Stardew Valley,
Unturned, 7 Days to Die, and Forst Punk.

Still guessing there are hundreds more but since I don't actually currently use
Linux (well very very barely... just booted one as terminal for Unix) I'm not sure
if there's anything out there that isn't also on Microsoft. Again, pretty busy at
the moment, but about 150 minutes of search and it looks like Globulation 2
might fit bill, hoping to hear from others.

BTW, I hate to mention Linux without mentioning security, Linux has jails and Microsoft doesn't. Since Microsoft's omission of Jails and Chroot (it doesn't have Chroot yet does it, they're had like 40+ years to add it) it's pretty good evidence that they really don't want to supply security.