Steam Achievement Hunters... why?

[Dead†]

With programs like SAM, it kinda takes the buzz out of the whole thing, does it not?

Some of the tasks you have to do seem so tedious and to expend all that time and energy for what can be achieved with a few clicks of your mouse, don't you ever think "what's the point?"

I used to be a trophy hunter on PlayStation so I get it, you want that sense of completion, or if you're like me, you wan't to have an impressive library of platinum/100%'s you can show off. But when anyone can auto-unlock something that you choose to put hours, maybe even days into, don't you feel like it just ruins the whole ecosystem. Is there even a way to prove someone hasn't used SAM to unlock achievements in a believable order.

I'm expecting answers like "there's a small community of noble achievement hunters who compete with/or against each other under an honor system" or "I don't do it for competition, it's for my personal enjoyment" which having been there, done that, I find hard to believe in some instances. Same goes for "I like the challenge". If anyone can receive the same award it hardly makes the challenge worth pursuing, right?

Please, hunters, tell me why I'm wrong!

[KalGimpa]

Soren の投稿を引用：

KalCuey の投稿を引用：

i care nothing for them

but i get that some people do like em

my using sam,

before i could turn off the pop ups,

should not impact anyone else's ability to enjoy their hunt, though

it should also not be a reason to not improve on them for those that do like them

Something achievement hunters like is using global achievement statistics to both guage the exclusivity of the achievement and the difficulty of it. SAM effects global achievement stats. So on xbox if the achievement is 0.08% of players earned it, you know it's hard. And on PC, if 2% earned it, you don't know if 1.92% of them are SAM users or what.

I'm not saying global achievement stats are completely useless thanks to SAM. But the statistics would be so much more fun and useful if SAM users were known or discluded from the statistics. Rather than everyone just having to guess.

i get that

i would be more than happy to have it marked somehow

[Kenpoleon Bonaparte]

Coletnite の投稿を引用：

When theres an unobtainable achievement that requires online plays on a service that was shut down several months after release by the company i dont cheat them, but i throw curses at that company every single time it catches my eye, which is a ton of times. After running into this issue twice, I try to refrain from such games ignoring live services mostly.

Yeah, those unobtainable achievements are a definite problem, as they mess up the players' stats. I certainly feel like I'm the one getting cheated when an unobtainable (i.e. shut-down multiplayer) achievement counts against me.

Coletnite の投稿を引用：

I play a lot of my games on gog, where this is not an issue.

Yeah, more and more I'm moving to Gog, but the main reason would be Steam's "Big Brother" attitude towards it's customers. But playing Gog games and not having to worry about achievements at all (like the good ol' days) is certainly a plus.

[Pipe]

AustrAlien2010 の投稿を引用：

The same can be said from playing games. You can just download save files from the internet. What's the point of playing if you can just download a save file?

I have legit seen someone with this exact mentality here in this forum
he doesn't play any single player games due to that

[Lunacy]

It's easy to tell when someone used SAM by checking their unlock dates. They'll often have everything, or chunks of achievements all unlocked at the same time, then you can tell they sued SAM to discredit their "accomplishments".
While my 100% have a long spread out timeline, with the only time achievements share a date are when multiples are unlocked simultaneously (or retroactively completed upon login after being freshly added)

It's the legitimate pride & accomplishment of earning and finishing these challenges (and not by just buying or bypassing them) that makes them worth something, not some otherworldly intrinsic reward that doesn't exist.
We do it for ourselves, to feel that accomplished goal of 100%-achievements, simply because we enjoyed playing that game a lot.

[Sp3tzn4z]

The only reason I''m not bothered by SAM is because when I go for achievements in a game, I do it for the fun of it, I do it for me. I don't care what others have done or not done. If you think Playstation, Xbox, etc don't have tools like this, your wrong.

I know about the playstation one because of someone that showed me how he got all his trophies there using a tool after I asked how he got them with so little free time. And it would be fair to assume that there's such a tool for every platform.

[Blitz4]

Arkham99 の投稿を引用：

Dr Madbastard の投稿を引用：

Is using SAM ban-able though?

sadly, no... it should be though...:-)

no it shouldn't.

adding achievements that you don't have or didn't righfully earn in the past should be bannable. removing achievements that you have earned in order todo another run or speedrun of earning achievements shouldn't be banned ever.

[Blitz4]

Soren の投稿を引用：

KalCuey の投稿を引用：

i care nothing for them

but i get that some people do like em

my using sam,

before i could turn off the pop ups,

should not impact anyone else's ability to enjoy their hunt, though

it should also not be a reason to not improve on them for those that do like them

Something achievement hunters like is using global achievement statistics to both guage the exclusivity of the achievement and the difficulty of it. SAM effects global achievement stats. So on xbox if the achievement is 0.08% of players earned it, you know it's hard. And on PC, if 2% earned it, you don't know if 1.92% of them are SAM users or what.

I'm not saying global achievement stats are completely useless thanks to SAM. But the statistics would be so much more fun and useful if SAM users were known or discluded from the statistics. Rather than everyone just having to guess.

there'll still things like cheat engine and such. some games allow it.

it'll never be a reliable statistic.

[TentacleMayor]

I can understand going after achievements purely for the challenge, maybe displaying your harder achievements in your profile, mostly for yourself. Cheating achievements, I will never understand.

[Blitz4]

TentacleMayor の投稿を引用：

I can understand going after achievements purely for the challenge, maybe displaying your harder achievements in your profile, mostly for yourself. Cheating achievements, I will never understand.

Same. Steam doesn't give you a higher level for having more achievements. They'd be a fool todo that. And people aren't selling steam accounts with 5000 perfect games on them. Ubisoft however on their launcher oh they give you unlocks in various games as you get achievements, in that case I can see people doing it and I'm sure people do.

[Soren]

Blitz4 の投稿を引用：

there'll still things like cheat engine and such. some games allow it.

it'll never be a reliable statistic.

Yeah, but removing or displaying SAM users in the global statistics data probably wouldn't cause them to go out of their way to use other methods to avoid something that does not hurt them.

It'd help the numbers be more accurate, even if not still fully accurate. To be clear. Even though I'm just casual with achievements these days. There have been plenty of times I've used global achievement statistics to comment on subjects of difficulty or just looking at the statistics for fun.

[Blitz4]

Soren の投稿を引用：

Blitz4 の投稿を引用：

there'll still things like cheat engine and such. some games allow it.

it'll never be a reliable statistic.

Yeah, but removing or displaying SAM users in the global statistics data probably wouldn't cause them to go out of their way to use other methods to avoid something that does not hurt them.

It'd help the numbers be more accurate, even if not still fully accurate. To be clear. Even though I'm just casual with achievements these days. There have been plenty of times I've used global achievement statistics to comment on subjects of difficulty or just looking at the statistics for fun.

when you reset your achievements for a run. you don't want todo that. you do it because there's a pleasant sound and a popup showing you hit a milestone in the game. many games today are designed to be a sandbox for anyone to enjoy however they want. the issue with a game that takes the sandbox to the extreme like Cities Skylines 1 or Transport Fever 1/2 or Dwarf Fortress or SimCity. Those are examples of games that have no way to be beaten. You define the victory condition. For those games, the achievements can provide a victory condition in a game that has none. That means to prevent SAM, you are saying those games can't be replayed the same way you first played the game.

What's more common today. Take Dark Souls for example. Many people played the game, put it down, only to come back to it 6-12 months later and try again. If they didn't play the game much or if they have forgotten most of the progression they made, then they're more like to restart with a new character. In fact I'd argue a game like Dark Souls, even someone who gave up at by O&S and came back a year later would be more likely to restart if their goal is to beat the game without any assistance or guides or cheating. If they jump right back in and get rocked by O&S again, they're less likely to remember how to play. At that point you have a player who uses a guide to progress vs a player who decides they're not going to cheat and start over. Without SAM, you're punishing the person who would rather beat the game legit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKRfZbzRbQM


resetting achievements are what's needed. there's even games like X3, X4, Factorio, that let you reset your achievements in the game. but we still didn't mention the elephant. yea that one.

mods. most games if you install mods. achievements don't work. there's some games that you have to install mods to play. i have a feeling there's some issue with mods and unmaintained games out there that requires gamers to use SAM to activate achievements. i don't know how to solve this. it's likely one of the reasons SAM is allowed.


EDIT: found the video clip

[BJWyler]

Arkham99 の投稿を引用：

no... not really... the biggest effect of SAM is that it heavily distorts the global stats because it's so widely in use... you can usually spot someone who's used it by the date stamps, but even that math has its flaws (when achievements are legit unlocked offline)... "the buzz" of unlocking an achievement can only be "achieved" when done legit, even the grinders are rewarding... some cheevos are, in fact, "games within games" and very well crafted... e.g. sending the Gnome into space for 'Half-Life 2' completely changes the complexity of your playthrough...:-)

Soren の投稿を引用：

Something achievement hunters like is using global achievement statistics to both guage the exclusivity of the achievement and the difficulty of it. SAM effects global achievement stats. So on xbox if the achievement is 0.08% of players earned it, you know it's hard. And on PC, if 2% earned it, you don't know if 1.92% of them are SAM users or what.

I'm not saying global achievement stats are completely useless thanks to SAM. But the statistics would be so much more fun and useful if SAM users were known or discluded from the statistics. Rather than everyone just having to guess.

SAM isn't as widely used as one would like to believe, otherwise we would never see achievements at .01%. The fact of the matter is that there are a wide variety of ways to cheat achievements that are cumulatively more used than SAM, especially since they have been used long before SAM existed.

-Have a friend or family member help or complete the achievement for you.
-Edit the game files.
-Use someone else's game save file.
-Use a dev console or cheat codes.
-Take advantage of in game mechanics or features to bypass the "normal" route.
-Exploit bugs.
-Mods - either external or from the Steam Workshop
-Multi-boxing
-Win Trading
-Achievement servers
-Steam Console

And console achievements can be, and have been cheated as well, so to say that they are more accurate is not quite correct.

Another fallacy I see mentioned all the time is that the rarity of an achievement is based upon the difficulty in obtaining it. That is hardly the case. The rarity has nothing to do with difficulty, but everything to do with who bothers to get them. I see many, many rare achievements that are brain dead simple to obtain, and only take minutes of time to do so.

Lunacy の投稿を引用：

It's easy to tell when someone used SAM by checking their unlock dates. They'll often have everything, or chunks of achievements all unlocked at the same time, then you can tell they sued SAM to discredit their "accomplishments".
While my 100% have a long spread out timeline, with the only time achievements share a date are when multiples are unlocked simultaneously (or retroactively completed upon login after being freshly added)

Incorrect. There are several reasons why achievements may unlock with the same timestamp, not the least of which is offline mode, and some games do it by design whether online or off.

[Soren]

Blitz4 の投稿を引用：

Without SAM, you're punishing the person who would rather beat the game legit.

Well, I'm not taking a full anti SAM stance. I don't think I did? My main problem with it was it effecting the global statistics. Ideally, I just wanted SAM to not effect global achievement statistics. As in you use it, and your data (at least for that game/achievement) is ignored for the global stats. Either that or the statistics state how much it's effected by SAM use.

[Soren]

BJWyler の投稿を引用：

And console achievements can be, and have been cheated as well, so to say that they are more accurate is not quite correct.

Many a gamertags have been banned because people unlocked online only achievements offline. Reminds me of that old article about the banned people of xbox live. So many users complaining about getting banned for trying to unlock achievements offline when Microsoft knew those ones couldn't under any normal circumstance unlock offline.

So for me to say they are "more accurate" is actually very correct.

BJWyler の投稿を引用：

Another fallacy I see mentioned all the time is that the rarity of an achievement is based upon the difficulty in obtaining it.

It's correlative. Exceptions may exist at times.

[BJWyler]

Soren の投稿を引用：

Blitz4 の投稿を引用：

Without SAM, you're punishing the person who would rather beat the game legit.

Well, I'm not taking a full anti SAM stance. I don't think I did? My main problem with it was it effecting the global statistics. Ideally, I just wanted SAM to not effect global achievement statistics. As in you use it, and your data (at least for that game/achievement) is ignored for the global stats. Either that or the statistics state how much it's effected by SAM use.

And how will one determine that? The way SAM works, Steam cannot differentiate between it and the actual game sending the signal that an achievement was unlocked. The truth of the matter is, no one knows, nor can know, if someone used SAM or not, unless that person specifically states that they used SAM. And again, as I listed there are many more ways to unlock an achievement that does not involve SAM, and more likely than not, one of those methods was used more often than SAM was.

Soren の投稿を引用：

BJWyler の投稿を引用：

And console achievements can be, and have been cheated as well, so to say that they are more accurate is not quite correct.

Many a gamertags have been banned because people unlocked online only achievements offline. Reminds me of that old article about the banned people of xbox live. So many users complaining about getting banned for trying to unlock achievements offline when Microsoft knew those ones couldn't under any normal circumstance unlock offline.

So for me to say they are "more accurate" is actually very correct.

It may very well be correct in terms of comparing PC achievements to console achievements, but there is still no verifiable proof of that. It is still an assumption. Could turn out to be that console achievements are cheated as much as PC achievements. Your very example of all these people being banned for doing it with online only achievements, can lead in that direction (how many were banned for non-online only achievements? How many haven't been banned at all?). The only difference is that people are banned less for doing it on PC because PC is an open platform, therefore it is much more difficult to ban for such things.

Soren の投稿を引用：

BJWyler の投稿を引用：

Another fallacy I see mentioned all the time is that the rarity of an achievement is based upon the difficulty in obtaining it.

It's correlative. Exceptions may exist at times.

It's not correlative at all. I literally have seen achievements that would be considered "difficult" to obtain have a much higher completion rate than achievements that literally take less than a minute to obtain, and are faceroll easy. And this is not just "at times" but a normal, and regular observable fact. The only actual correlations to the rarity of an achievement are how long the achievement has been available, how many people play the game, and how many of those people actually care about achievements. Of course we also have the factor of whether the achievement is also tied to a game mode that still makes it available - like multiplayer achievements in a game that multiplayer is either dead or removed.