Stop greedy publishers to block Geforce Now

[saschaschwarz]

I am a Mac Guy. I own several "real" Mac and a very powerful hackintosh that I use for CAD. It is capable of playing actual games, if they are available for Mac. From time to time I like to play a game which is (i have to say "not yet" in some cases). Yeah, I could to dual boot, but that sucks.
Now Geforce Now lets me "rent" gaming hardware for 5,49€ a month for that I would have to pay several hundred € and refresh it all 2 years at least.
I can run most of the games I purchased on steam and I am happy with the provided service. Yes, for some hardcore gamers that need the max FPS that might not be good enough, but for me it is just perfect. And I can even play some games with a BT mouse and BT keyboard or game controller on my Amazon Fire Cube(with sideload) on my 75" TV.

What I always liked about Steam was the philosophy that I had to buy a game only once. I could buy the game when there is only a PC version and when the game later is ported to Mac I don´t need to buy it again. Also there is no HW looking. If I used my desktop at home, my Laptop on travel or maybe someone else´s PC, I just install steam, login and can play my games. (Not saying to let others play my games!)
This is why I use steam and prefer it over all other other platforms.

On the game consoles this is very different. I own a game for the PS3, but when I bought the PS4 I have to buy the PS4 version if the game. Ok you might argue that this is a different code, developed for a new platform.

But now some greedy publishers like 2K, Bethesda, Activision and Blizzard don´t allow you to play your games, that you have purchased a license, in the cloud.
So where is the difference if I use my HW, some rented or loan HW at my home, some HW at a friends home or in a vacation rental to play my games OR if I rent the HW from a cloud provider like Geforce Now? None, absolutely none.

But those greedy .... want to charge you again. Like with Googles Stadia where you had to purchase any game again just for Stadia and could play that game then only in Stadia.
And that is the reason that Stadia failed. Nobody wants to buy a game again oder and over.

If we, the customers don´t do anything the will screw us over.

Steam could help here, for example mark games that cannot be played in Geforce Now.
But I fear that Valve does not want to stand in for the rights of their customers if that means they might jeopardize the relations to some big publishers that bring in a lot of business.

[RedLightning]

Start_Running eredeti hozzászólása:

RedLightning eredeti hozzászólása:

Well at least when you replaced VHS .. you got a superior picture..

Cannot say that for the games they want us to buy multiple copies of .

Assuming the transfer was done competantly. And then there's also the matter of sound.

Paint_Man eredeti hozzászólása:

License for what? The games are NOT included on GeForce Now, the games are in the user's Steam library. I can pay for GeForce Now, but if I didn't also bought the games on Steam I can't play them.

Licensing the streaming rights. That's a thing.

Playing on GeForce Now is the same as if I log into my Steam account on my neighbours high end PC and play the games I have in my Steam library.

Not quite, because again, that game has to install and download before being playyed locally. Streaming is something different.

nVidia should only advertise that they support Steam and other game launchers to shut up the greedy devs.

It wouldn't matter if they advertised it or not. The devs would still pull their games, because the streaming rights are worth money.

Just really..

picky picky..

Buying the same game again and again again.. is superfluous..

[Start_Running]

RedLightning eredeti hozzászólása:

Start_Running eredeti hozzászólása:

Assuming the transfer was done competantly. And then there's also the matter of sound.




Licensing the streaming rights. That's a thing.


Not quite, because again, that game has to install and download before being playyed locally. Streaming is something different.


It wouldn't matter if they advertised it or not. The devs would still pull their games, because the streaming rights are worth money.

Just really..

picky picky..

Buying the same game again and again again.. is superfluous..

It depends on if each purchase offers some unique utility that makes the purchase worth while. Pretrty much every game I own has been reacquired via STeam, GoG and Origin.

its not that consumers would have to purchase the games again ... nVidia needs tio license the streaming rights for the games.. Thats it. Of course this would likely be reflected in the pricing model but such is life.

[saschaschwarz]

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

And Nvidia is running multiple instances of a game to their customers. Just like Amazon provides Windows OS on their instances. I'm sure Amazon and Microsoft had a talk before implementing the feature... Yet somehow a game developer doing the same is 'greedy'

Nope! If you get a Windows instance from AWS, the OS license for Windows is provided by Amazon as part of the service. Amazon has volume licenses and this way they prevent that unlicensed copies of Windows are running in AWS. Also it is more convenient for the customer.
BUT if you install any Software(not via an AWS service) by yourself and you own a licenses, then you can install and use that Software.
And this is exactly the same as Geforce Now. You get a restricted Desktop with Steam installed from Nvidia, you need to login and can only play the games that you have purchased.
For the underlying Windows OS Nvidia has provided you the license as part of the service, just like Amazon does in AWS.

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

Would game developers be happy if Ubisoft unilaterally decided any game owned on Steam is automatically owned on Uplay? Or if any Steam owned game could be played through GOG?
Pretty sure not.

Happy maybe not, because if they can charge you twice, some will, as we see with the GF service.
But actually you can import your Steam Games in GoG with Gogo Connect. Why? Because you bought a license for those games!
https://www.gog.com/connect

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

rawWwRrr eredeti hozzászólása:

With GFN, you aren't playing your own licensed copy of the game, you are paying to play nVidia's copy of the game.

And this man here gets it.

No, he is just another example that many who discuss here have never used the GF Now service and have no clue how this works.
Sign up, try the free access and then you understand.

Start_Running eredeti hozzászólása:

I think they were hoping to leverage their tech against developers.

Actually it is quite the opposite. Nvidia uses their tech to make games available to users that otherwise would not have access to the games, because they don´t have the PC HW to run them. But the Users still need to buy a licenses for the games. So they would actually sell more licenses of their games.
But instead they trying to make extra money on the licenses they already sold to you.

Like myself. I bought some games like Frostpunk and They are Billions just now, because I can play them via Geforce Now as there is no Mac version. I like both games and I am happy to pay for them. But I refuse to buy a PC just for that purpose.
I would have not bought both games without GF as I don´t have any capability to play them.

Similar to Playstation Now. If there would be a Mac client I would probably sell my PS4 and never buy a PS5 if I could get a working streaming service that allows me to play my games.
But the difference between PS Now and GF Now is that Sony gives you access to >600 Games as part of this service that you don´t have to buy.
And in the PW Now example you are really playing on "Sony Copy" of the games.

[saschaschwarz]

As many ask why I started this thread and what "we" can do.

Take a look at the "right to repair" movement. Big companies like Apple and Samsung try to sue independent repair shop to prevent them from fixing your phones, computers etc.
While in the US they have enough support from crooked politicians, in the EU Apple for example took one slap after the other. Here it is perfectly legal to get your devices repaired by whom you want.
Of course they are trying to make this impossible, for example by soldering on the MEM and SSD chips and make it nearly impossible to upgrade. Or by pairing chips that prevent you from taking spare parts from doner devices.
But the customer decides if he wants to support this by buying products or now.
I did not buy a new iMac or Mac Pro. I built a hackintosh, more powerful that the latest Mac Pro for a friction of the costs.

Do I expect someone to renounce a long expected game like The Elder Scrolls VI to put pressure on Bethesda? No, probably 99% of the User won´t do that.

But I am shocked to see how many are defending the actions of publishers like Activision and Bethseda and willing to give up their right to play a game they bought on the hardware they want.

[secuda]

Paint_Man eredeti hozzászólása:

Starting now every game in my Steam library that gets removed from GeForce Now also gets a thumbs down review.

its not even the devs fault its nvidias for sometimes not even speak to the devs just look at the long dark for example.
https://www.pcgamer.com/nvidia-didnt-have-permission-to-put-the-long-dark-on-geforce-now-developer-says/
"Sorry to those who are disappointed you can no longer play #thelongdark on GeForce Now. Nvidia didn't ask for our permission to put the game on the platform so we asked them to remove it. Please take your complaints to them, not us. Devs should control where their games exist."

[Gambit-3k]

Kusa eredeti hozzászólása:

saschaschwarz eredeti hozzászólása:

With Geforce Now you have Steam installed on the Nvidia servers, you need to login to steam on the remote PC and they automate the install of your game. But the exact binary code that Steam would install on any other PC on you desk.

What a vivid imagination you have.

What's he imagining? There is apparently a lot of confusion over what GFN is, it's a service that streams a remote virtual PC to you. When you play your game, it is using Steam drm validation with your license, they aren't just letting you use a different version because they can see you own the game, it is literally the same version using your license being validated by Steam drm the same way it is on any pc. Every person using GFN has paid the developer for a license to access the game being run on the virtual PC and streamed to them. It is not the same as when things are sold on a different platform or a new media, no matter how much it may "feel" that way to people.

Developers upset they got free advertising to sale a game to people that might not otherwise purchase it is quite strange no matter what the case.

[Tito Shivan]

saschaschwarz eredeti hozzászólása:

Similar to Playstation Now. If there would be a Mac client I would probably sell my PS4 and never buy a PS5 if I could get a working streaming service that allows me to play my games.
But the difference between PS Now and GF Now is that Sony gives you access to >600 Games as part of this service that you don´t have to buy.
And in the PW Now example you are really playing on "Sony Copy" of the games.

And games in PSNow are there because the developers have an agreement with Sony. If they don't want to be they're not part of the service, regardless if they otherwise sell it for PS.

But developers doing the same with Nvidia is being greedy.

Different services, different rules.

RedLightning eredeti hozzászólása:

Well at least when you replaced VHS .. you got a superior picture..

Cannot say that for the games they want us to buy multiple copies of .

For games I got them on another platform or through a different service, which are also perks in itself.

Gambit-3 eredeti hozzászólása:

There is apparently a lot of confusion over what GFN is, it's a service that streams a remote virtual PC to you.

No it's not, hence the confusion.
Nvidia isn't selling it as a 'virtual pc' at all.

[Gambit-3k]

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

Gambit-3 eredeti hozzászólása:

There is apparently a lot of confusion over what GFN is, it's a service that streams a remote virtual PC to you.

No it's not, hence the confusion.
Nvidia isn't selling it as a 'virtual pc' at all.

It is, it's just a specialized virtual pc with limited access. If you read all the fine print and forums, it's quite clear what it is. They advertise it as a way to play your games that you bought, on the platform you purchased them on, using your existing accounts. It's all just streamed remotely from virtualized hardware.

Early on, people found ways to access each pc's command console and stuff like that, and each session is a sandboxed environment running in a virtual PC that limits your access to things like the Steam client or other participating launchers, they do limit what games can be installed, but it is just a specialized virtual PC running Steam and your games using your licenses.

edit: I mean I can see why people are confused and I'm not saying people are wrong to be confused. They market it using very common language and marketing speak, they don't want to scare people away with words like "remote access to a sandboxed virtual PC environment". So while I think it's fair to blame Nvidia somewhat for the confusion, I would just hope people make an effort to understand what it is before drawing a conclusion.

[Nx Machina]

Gambit-3 eredeti hozzászólása:

Kusa eredeti hozzászólása:

What a vivid imagination you have.

What's he imagining? There is apparently a lot of confusion over what GFN is, it's a service that streams a remote virtual PC to you. When you play your game, it is using Steam drm validation with your license, they aren't just letting you use a different version because they can see you own the game, it is literally the same version using your license being validated by Steam drm the same way it is on any pc. Every person using GFN has paid the developer for a license to access the game being run on the virtual PC and streamed to them. It is not the same as when things are sold on a different platform or a new media, no matter how much it may "feel" that way to people.

Developers upset they got free advertising to sale a game to people that might not otherwise purchase it is quite strange no matter what the case.

Did you not read the quote I posted in reference to?

Steam on Nvidia servers, not linked to Steam, hence vivid imagination.

[Gambit-3k]

Kusa eredeti hozzászólása:

Gambit-3 eredeti hozzászólása:

What's he imagining? There is apparently a lot of confusion over what GFN is, it's a service that streams a remote virtual PC to you. When you play your game, it is using Steam drm validation with your license, they aren't just letting you use a different version because they can see you own the game, it is literally the same version using your license being validated by Steam drm the same way it is on any pc. Every person using GFN has paid the developer for a license to access the game being run on the virtual PC and streamed to them. It is not the same as when things are sold on a different platform or a new media, no matter how much it may "feel" that way to people.

Developers upset they got free advertising to sale a game to people that might not otherwise purchase it is quite strange no matter what the case.

Did you not read the quote I posted in reference to?

Steam on Nvidia servers, not linked to Steam, hence vivid imagination.

Yeah, I read it. I asked what you think he is imagining. It is Steam on Nvidia servers, it's not linked to Steam. It's literally Steam running on Nvidia servers that you log into to run the games (exact binary code) with your license using Steams drm, exactly like he said. So I asked what do you think he is imagining?

I could be mistaken, but It seems you have the impression these are different versions of the games made specially for Nvidia servers and they are just granting you access by looking at a linked Steam account. That's why I said I think there is a lot of confusion, as I have read a ton of comments in this thread from people I respect, that seem to have large misconceptions about how the service works.

edit: I have to put some blame on Nvidia if this many people have these ideas about the service, but I also feel many people are making claims without researching the facts.

[saschaschwarz]

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

And games in PSNow are there because the developers have an agreement with Sony. If they don't want to be they're not part of the service, regardless if they otherwise sell it for PS.

But developers doing the same with Nvidia is being greedy.

I see you don´t want to understand. PS Now gives you access to games as part of the service you pay for, that YOU DON´T NEED TO BUY as download or disc. It is similar to Playstation Plus, just with streaming. You don´t own the games and when you cancel your subscription your access to the games is gone.
And of course every game you play "for free" in PS Now or PS+ is a copy that is not sold via download or disc. There is a real loss to the developer that needs to be compensated.

If game is ported to another platform like a Mac version of a PC game, or an iOS or Android version. Then there is a real effort for the dev to port it. Some will ask you to pay again for the Mac version if you already have the PC version, some will not.
BTW. That is the reason why I prefer Steam over others, pay once and get the PC, Mac and Linux version is available.

[Gambit-3k]

Kusa eredeti hozzászólása:

Gambit-3 eredeti hozzászólása:

Yeah, I read it. I asked what you think he is imagining. It is Steam on Nvidia servers, it's not linked to Steam. It's literally Steam running on Nvidia servers that you log into to run the games (exact binary code) with your license using Steams drm, exactly like he said. So I asked what do you think he is imagining?

I could be mistaken, but It seems you have the impression these are different versions of the games made specially for Nvidia servers and they are just granting you access by looking at a linked Steam account. That's why I said I think there is a lot of confusion, as I have read a ton of comments in this thread from people I respect, that seem to have large misconceptions about how the service works.

edit: I have to put some blame on Nvidia if this many people have these ideas about the service, but I also feel many people are making claims without researching the facts.

Steam INSTALLED on Nvidia servers.

Yes??? The Steam client is installed (not linked) to run your games using Steam with your licenses. I'm not sure what I'm confusing, but you can help clear it up for me by telling me what you think he was imagining. Do you not think Steam is INSTALLED on Nvidia servers? Help me understand.

[Pocahawtness]

saschaschwarz eredeti hozzászólása:

But I am shocked to see how many are defending the actions of publishers like Activision and Bethseda and willing to give up their right to play a game they bought on the hardware they want.

I don't think this is really anything to with the gamers. THis is entirely between the companies and Nvidia to resolve. I mean we don't even know the precise reason why these companies have a problem with Nvidia but my guess is the real reason is DRM issues. I mean Steam controls access to the games, but it sounds like Nvidia don't. In other words if I register a game through Steam I can also register it through Nvidia. I don't know. But who cares, it's something they will sort out. It is not right for us to demand anything when we aren't aware of the problems.

[Crazy Tiger]

saschaschwarz eredeti hozzászólása:

But I am shocked to see how many are defending the actions of publishers like Activision and Bethseda and willing to give up their right to play a game they bought on the hardware they want.

It's not defending when one is realistic. The way things are, unless Nvidia secures a license, they have 0 right to stream those games.

Nvidia made a deal with Valve to access Steam. That does not mean that the individual titles have been agreed upon, as Valve has NO say about the titles they don't own.

Stuff like that may change in the future, but as it is now Nvidia has done a big oopsie.

Don't forget that publishers also make the choice to opt in Remote Play and Remote Play together. Even on Steams own "streaming", that's an active choice by publishers.

[Spawn of Totoro]

saschaschwarz eredeti hozzászólása:

But actually you can import your Steam Games in GoG with Gogo Connect. Why? Because you bought a license for those games!
https://www.gog.com/connect

.... No, you can import those games because the developer allows the user to do so. That is they you are limited in what games you can move over through GOG connect. GOG go permission from the developers to do so, in advance. If they had done it with out permission, then the developers would have been with in their rights to have the game removed from the user's GOG account or GOG would have had to pay out of pocket to the developer, for the game(s) in question.

saschaschwarz eredeti hozzászólása:

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

And games in PSNow are there because the developers have an agreement with Sony. If they don't want to be they're not part of the service, regardless if they otherwise sell it for PS.

But developers doing the same with Nvidia is being greedy.

I see you don´t want to understand. PS Now gives you access to games as part of the service you pay for, that YOU DON´T NEED TO BUY as download or disc. It is similar to Playstation Plus, just with streaming. You don´t own the games and when you cancel your subscription your access to the games is gone.
And of course every game you play "for free" in PS Now or PS+ is a copy that is not sold via download or disc. There is a real loss to the developer that needs to be compensated.

If game is ported to another platform like a Mac version of a PC game, or an iOS or Android version. Then there is a real effort for the dev to port it. Some will ask you to pay again for the Mac version if you already have the PC version, some will not.
BTW. That is the reason why I prefer Steam over others, pay once and get the PC, Mac and Linux version is available.

You are ignoring the issue that Tito stated.

The developers of those games have an agreement with Sony. If they wanted to pull their game from PSNow, then they could do so.

Sony still needs permission from the developers to have the games on their service. They require a license that allows them to do so.

Nvidia did not get such a license, hence they developers were pulling their games.

Same with Steam. They have to have permission to sell you the PC, Mac and Linux versions. There are developers why may not want to do it like that and they are allowed not to. Call of Duty: Black Ops is one example. There are separate Windows and Mac version of it on Steam.