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So why all of a sudden are we forced to give this information? The last games I had bought were before or around Christmas and there was no problem. Now I try a few days ago so to speak and it is asking for too personal of information. If it simply asked for the country and state, I would not be having an issue. But you want my actual street and house number and possibly even a phone number too? No.
I already have money in my wallet from previous gift cards and I have gift cards I had bought before this, but never uploaded into my wallet. So that is money that I can no longer use as they are non-refundable. Just wasted. People are saying local laws are forcing Steam to do this. When did this take effect? Even if they were, what exactly is needed because people are blindly saying give all your info while others are saying only two or three key pieces of information is all that is required and that is already automatically done by the servers/internet or where you even bought the gift card to some extent.
I'd also like to bring to attention a lot of the users who use gift cards are children. They either buy it with cash or they receive them from their grandparents on their birthdays or for Christmas, etc. You can not ask someone under age for their personal information.
Neither is "Problem is unlikely to be solved, therefore Problem does not need to be discussed."
This has in essence been said throughout the entirety of this mess, weird how people still miss it.
Because basically every government is cracking down on online sales taxes and charging tax since most people were not self reporting their purchases like they were supposed to.
Beginning of the year
Address is required, that's it. Where you purchase the gift card is meaningless and useless for this reason. Gift cards are not taxed, your purchases in the store are taxed when the funds are redeemed, so it doesn;t matter where the gift card was obtained from.
Not illegal, in order for children to use steam per the TOS the parents gave permission to collect the information. Everyone pays sales tax, even children.
So everyone was suppose to self calculate their own online purchase sales tax? That does not sound right. Even when I had taxes done by professionals, that question was never asked.
These are also not physical copies from stores, online or off, but digital. And does Steam even actually charge online sales tax now on each game or they just want the info?
Then they need to tax the gift cards and be done with it. There is still no reason to ask for full address, other than country and possibly state. How are they even going to verify you live there? There is no bank to verify, like they would a credit card. If they are going off your IP or some other source, you typing in your address is redundant and not required.
I am not sure about the TOS, but children are NOT suppose to give out their information. Even if said parent did it for them, that is still the child's information. A child does not give their information at a physical store either when they pay.
I'm more familiar with the US law then EU law, but most have something similar. You are 100% supposed to self report
https://www.cpapracticeadvisor.com/small-business/blog/10958896/are-millions-of-americans-tax-cheats-most-who-buy-online-probably-are
Steam charges tax in all the states where its required. For instance i'm in Florida and we don't have an online sales tax YET, but they are finalizing it and it should go live sometime this year.
You cannot charge sales tax on a gift card by law, you can only charge the tax when the product is redeemed. That's not something steam can change as those laws are basically standard across the world and apply to ALL gift cards.
That's where it gets trickier, there is no 100% way to verify online, but steam just has to do enough to satisfy the various regulatory groups. Hence if you lie, they record that you lie and then that could be used against you to collect back taxes. Hence why you can imagine they'd collect more then the minimum info to cover themselves.
It's not their information, it's their parent's information as a child does not have a billing address, their parent does. If a child ordered something off amazon for instance they'd provide the exact same information. Again, read the steam TOS.
The governments charge tax to EVERYONE, including children, and you agree to that when you make your account.
It's sort of ridiculous sounding, I actually agree with that, and I agree with other points you make about child information being out there too sounding a bit unorthodox, but really that's just down to the guardian and the TOS they signed to make the account for them.
Beyond that, I am sure they do have a way to verify that you filed correctly, and when you did not, because it's still *seriously* not recommended to lie about that stuff, even if you are given control which one might feel they shouldn't have.
at the bottom of this i cite the BEST post ive seen on it yet.
notice how the people telling you that its ok and how it should be dont cite the laws. thats because they dont even know them. seriously. they never looked, never respond with FACTS to posts like the one im citing.
notice how they wont get into the weeds and address it point by point or law by law. nope. instead its just vague assertions. never a fact, just assertions. assertions with out facts are just opinions, no matter how repetitiously repeated and strongly asserted. and any google search can tell us all "opinions are like" ..... .
you are right. they dont NEED your address. they want it. they fully expect most people to just give it. most probably will.
steam is gathering a lot of address about us using various means.
date of birth, name, street address, zip code, city, state, country, email, youtube account, phone number.
thats way more than i want to give them.
all they NEED is my age, an email address, and since i use a steam card for payment they need some data points which they can get because i say i live in germany, i bought my steam card in germany, and my ip address is in germany. those three data points are non contradictory and are perfectly acceptable from a legal point to assume that my taxes go to germany. in fact they ONLY need two of them. thats right. 2 of those 3 data points are sufficient.
the law is also pretty clear that collecting more data than the absolute bare minimum needed to establish 2 data points is not legal.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1745643248317303563/ who never
Originally posted by RiO:
I actually prefer to cite the relevant articles of law directly from the law text that Valve themselves are citing. To avoid giving everyone a headache while attempting to read it, I'll point you to the more user-friendly HTML version[eur-lex.europa.eu] of the same law text for reference. (Compare the document IDs if you won't take my word for it.)
And now without further ado, where it all starts is Article 24b - as Steam is covered by electronically supplied services:
Article 24b
For the application of Article 58 of Directive 2006/112/EC, where telecommunications, broadcasting or electronically supplied services are supplied to a non-taxable person:
[...]
(d) under circumstances other than those referred to in Article 24a and in points (a), (b) and (c) of this Article, it shall be presumed that the customer is established, has his permanent address or usually resides at the place identified as such by the supplier on the basis of two items of non-contradictory evidence as listed in Article 24f of this Regulation.
So, let's move on to Article 24f:
Article 24f
For the purpose of applying the rules in Article 58 of Directive 2006/112/EC and fulfilling the requirements of point (d) of Article 24b or Article 24d(1) of this Regulation, the following shall, in particular, serve as evidence:
(a) the billing address of the customer;
(b) the internet Protocol (IP) address of the device used by the customer or any method of geolocation;
(c) bank details such as the location of the bank account used for payment or the billing address of the customer held by that bank;
(d) the Mobile Country Code (MCC) of the International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) stored on the Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card used by the customer;
(e) the location of the customer’s fixed land line through which the service is supplied to him;
(f) other commercially relevant information.
So, Steam legally needs only 2 items of non-contradictory evidence.
Out of those that in particular shall serve as evidence, they always have your IP address.
And for most payment methods, they always have the necessary bank details. EU bank account numbers that follow IBAN have two-letter ISO country codes in them. BIC codes carry the same information.
That's two points of data covered.
Valve only needs a third in case they need to rebute a presumption of a customer's location:
Article 24d
1. Where a supplier supplies a service listed in Article 58 of Directive 2006/112/EC, he may rebut a presumption referred to in Article 24a or in point (a), (b) or (c) of Article 24b of this Regulation on the basis of three items of non-contradictory evidence indicating that the customer is established, has his permanent address or usually resides elsewhere.
However, the presumptions in question are all based on physical location of the provided electronic service; on the service being tightly coupled to fixed equipment or a landline; or on being tied to a specific mobile phone and its SIM data.
None of these could ever apply to Steam as a distance seller of digital content access via the open internet, so there is nothing to rebute and there will not ever be a need for a third item of evidence.
Period. End of discussion.
That brings us to the GDPR[eur-lex.europa.eu]. Specifically; to article 5, which codifies data minimization and the fact that if a data controller has multiple ways available with which they can within reasonable means fill their needs - whether those be legal requirement; legitimate interest or otherwise - then they are obliged to use the means that result in processing the least amount of personal data. This is partly clarified in recital 39 as well.
Article 5 - Principles relating to processing of personal data
1. Personal data shall be:
(c) adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation to the purposes for which they are processed (‘data minimisation’);
(39) (...) The personal data should be adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary for the purposes for which they are processed. This requires, in particular, ensuring that the period for which the personal data are stored is limited to a strict minimum. Personal data should be processed only if the purpose of the processing could not reasonably be fulfilled by other means. (...)
Now, since Valve always have access to your IP address, because that's how your connecting to Steam, that's one item of evidence accounted for.
That leaves only one more. Valve usually also have access to bank account data via the payment transaction, or can get access to it with minimal effort. They'll either already receive it back via the payment confirmation sent to them from their payment provider, or they can query it from the payment provider, given a transaction ID.
So, only in the limited scenario where a payment method has no associated bank data, do they need to fallback on something else - like asking for a billing address.
In all other instances, the GDPR makes it so that they may not demand your billing address, because they already have other means available.
This doesn't quite cover everything though. Because even in aforementioned case of not having bank details available to them, they still can pick from "other commercially relevant information."
That term is not defined in the law text itself. But we can find its definition in accompanying explanatory notes[ec.europa.eu] as is usual with these type of complex directives:
9.5.1. What is covered by ‘other commercially relevant information’?
(...)
Some of the items which, depending on the circumstances under which the concrete business is conducted, could be used as ‘commercially relevant information’ are the following:
(1) Unique payment mechanisms – When a customer uses one of the methods of payment unique to a particular Member State, it provides accurate information identifying the Member State in which the supply was made. It could be taken as an indication as to where the customer belongs.
(2) Consumer trading history – When a customer has an established relationship with a business, records from prior transactions could provide a reliable indicator for future transactions. This information includes the historical IP address of the customer, billing address, place of predominant consumption, etc.
(3) Gift card point of sale – When a gift card is sold to a customer who is physically present at a retail establishment, it is likely that the customer will be local to the country in which the establishment is located.
(4) Country-locked gift cards – When gift cards are country-locked and can only be used in the country of issue (this restriction is stated clearly on the face of the card), the Member State in which the card is locked could be indicative of where the customer belongs in much the same way that a café or hotel that sells wi-fi access in a public area is treated as being the place of that customer.
(5) Documentation of third-party payment service providers – In many countries, payment service providers verify at least part of the billing address of a payment method before approving a transaction. Usually this information is not shared with the payment service provider’s customer (i.e., sellers of electronic services) for data protection and security reasons. However, when the payment service provider shares the information with the supplier of the service acquired, that information could be used as ‘commercially relevant information’.
(6) Customer self-certification – When the subscriber provides confirmation (e.g.within the online ordering process) regarding his country, his bank details (especially information where a bank account is) and credit card information, this could be taken to be ‘commercially relevant information’.
Interesting here are:
#1 which means the use of a payment method like iDEAL for Dutch people is in and of itself a valid item of evidence.
#2 which means repeat past access and purchases from a consistent IP address counts as a separate and second item of evidence next to the IP address of the current transaction.
#5 which means additional information not related to bank details that Valve may receive back from a payment provider - such as even part of (!!) a registered billing address - counts as an item of evidence next to bank details.
And finally, the big one - #6, which counts any active statement on the customer's part regarding his country; bank details or credit card information. I.e. Selecting your preferred store region; your preferred download region; etc. is an item of evidence as well.
Count all of these and there is absolutely no need for Valve to ever ask for a billing address.
Article 24b
Article 24f
Article 24d
GDPR
there. nice easy gathering of the website and the relevant laws and a challenge to anyone to actually read them before trying to rebut those who have actually read them.
or find the relevant tax laws froma different country, provide the link, and get into the weeds discussing them.
in other words bring some facts to the discussion without just making things up and trying to bluff your way through it.
Rude.
Nothing to stop you doing that right now, is there? In fact, I'd say it's easier than before, as you have all this time to yourself at home.
We in the EU have a neutral and transparent turnover tax system meaning we all sing from the same hymn sheet in the EU.
In the EU non business consumers are not officially required at all to RECORD & DECLARE their yearly consumable purchases. Only when a businesses (this includes sole traders) annual turnover exceeds £85'000, do you have to charge, declare and pay VAT (to tax office).
Now for the purposes of the audience can you demonstrate where buying a game from steam for a sole account (do remember games are non transferable unless a gift as stipulated by steams contract and accounts are also non transferable). how this falls into the category described above as a turnover ?
Even in the link you gave regarding US citizens, it clearly states a declaration is only required under use tax when sales tax isnt applied. We in europe do not use a use tax system and as such the matter remains purely a indirect taxation.
The closest thing we have to that is reverse charge but again its only legally relative to VAT registered businesses or those deemed by the relative tax authority laws as requiring registration and is only in relation to the tax responsibility falling on the buyer rather than the seller in certain circumstances.
Steam has todate on my previous purchases prior to change charged the correct VAT for the country i reside and through their own official admission as to why they are collecting such data post change regarding tax purposes, is VAT registered in my country but more importantly means none of the above applies to me a person natural or legal who receives a supply of services wholly for a private purpose regarding my legal obligations towards my countries tax system and laws.
I'm not. it's about par for the course.
Yep i'm aware of that hence why the very first thing I posted was
Due to the nature of tax law and the thousands of variations from state to state, country to country, etc its why all users on this forum can do is guess. Merely googling a law doesn't actually mean you comprehend how the law works or the intricacies of it.
I know in the EU they do it differently with stuff like this -
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/buying-goods-services-online-personal-use/buying-goods/buying-goods-online-coming-from-a-noneu-union-country_en
However companies tend to try to create a single standardized payment method that works across all regions, rather then have 200+ different methods for payments each tailored to a different country which is next to impossible to support. So just because it might not be necessary in the EU for some parts of it, doesn't make it wrong.
If you want the most accurate information you'd need to consult with a tax specialist who understands and works with international tax law. Not an internet troll who googles tax laws without understanding what they mean, has no knowledge of the agreements that Valve has with the various government entities, etc.
instead he assets in, contradiction of his own evidence, that its way too complex to understand and instead of trusting your lying eyes (that read the law) we should accept his unsubstantiated claims at face value.
note how any who disagree with his point of opinion are an "Internet troll who googles tax laws without understanding what they mean" whereas he was the one who googled tax laws and didn't understand what they mean. was he calling himself a troll? hmmmm
and in another great blunder the info he just cited about the EU related to online purchases of physical goods from outside the EU and paying vat on them when they arrive. hello... steam isn't physical goods. wrong law.
I'll make an exception to you on my ignore list this once. For some reason you feel threatened by my posts to the point of making personal and slanderous attacks against me so you have my pity for any insecurity you might have.
You make claims that you are not qualified to make, then attack anyone else. All your sources are random bits of data googled by people with no background in tax, yet you like to act like an expert on the subject.
The fact is that you have 0 knowledge regarding the subject, and as i've already said the tax law is INCREDIBLY complex and you'd have to consult with a specialist.
So i'll kindly ask you to try to behave in a civilized manner, otherwise you will result in ANOTHER thread being closed because of your continuous personal attacks.