Steam does ask suddenly for ID, if I want to buy a game?

[Blitzwing]

Its very odd, just yesterday I could simply buy games, now it does ask for ID?
like where you life and phone number

Update 27.01.2020
Here is the proof, what steam does request now.
https://imgur.com/a/BPV7ZG8

Some people do "guess" its due to new laws in USA, but I do life in Germany.

There is still no official statement from Steam.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by crunchyfrog:

Originally posted by brian9824:

Actually the refund policy they had was always in accordance with EU laws. It just wasn't being explained to EU customers in the right way which was more of a training issue for their support staff.

Actually, no it was a bit more than that, if I read your response correctly.

I spent a fair amount of time on here helping a whole load of people who were in Britain, like myself, or in the EU, trying to get refunds and staff were just not complying, even when presented with the actual law.

I used to be a legal advisor, who ran a charity dispensing free legal advice to disabled people, but I closed it down a few years ago. This was very much my bread and butter.

So, if you mean they were aware of it but the staff were not, and training was a bit ♥♥♥♥, fair enough. But the problem was there nonetheless.

Yeah the staff were not trained nor educated properly. That's what happens when you outsource support to a call center. The actual refund policy was never actually changed, the wording was just updated to be clearer that it was available to everyone under the conditions.

[crunchyfrog]

Originally posted by brian9824:

Originally posted by crunchyfrog:

Actually, no it was a bit more than that, if I read your response correctly.

I spent a fair amount of time on here helping a whole load of people who were in Britain, like myself, or in the EU, trying to get refunds and staff were just not complying, even when presented with the actual law.

I used to be a legal advisor, who ran a charity dispensing free legal advice to disabled people, but I closed it down a few years ago. This was very much my bread and butter.

So, if you mean they were aware of it but the staff were not, and training was a bit ♥♥♥♥, fair enough. But the problem was there nonetheless.

Yeah the staff were not trained nor educated properly. That's what happens when you outsource support to a call center. The actual refund policy was never actually changed, the wording was just updated to be clearer that it was available to everyone under the conditions.

That's fair enough then. I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing,.

I've just remembered one other thing from about 5 years ago that was Valve not complying with Eu law and that was that amendment that went in about your right to sue and arbitration. I'm sure it was just an oversight, as they fixed it within a week or two, but it was erroneously there for everyone until they amended it.

[endrsgm]

Originally posted by dr.desastro:

@endrsgm: The EZV states, that they can only help with questions regarding an EU business. Correct organisation would be the BBB EU privacy shield. Local tax authorities agree that for VAT purposes ident data of a private consumer is not needed, only from businesses/entrepreneurs. They even suggested, that Steam should put in a checkbox for "I am not an entrepreneur, but a private person" into the check-out page to override the filling-in of the other data. Wishful thinking, I guess. Still turning in circles here. At least I am told, that we have the right to exactly know what data is needed and for what reason. Looking at my Steam support ticket in that regard...well, not happy either.

so they are saying it hangs on the differential in taxes in Germany between businesses and private consumers.
in that case the address would only matter for a business because in Germany businesses can get the tax back they paid on items, in some cases. and they would need an address as part of that process.
it also matters who the tax is paid too.
https://blog.hellerconsult.com/umsatzsteuer-mehrwertsteuer-vorsteuer-worin-liegt-eigentlich-der-unterschied/
but as an end consumer my address doesn't matter because I have a better chance of getting blood from a turnip than getting ust back.
for instance, i've long since stopped arguing about double taxation when my family sends good via post to Germany as birthday presents for my kids and it was bought, paid for, taxes paid at origin of purchase and as per German law thus not taxable again for several reasons but the guy at the zoll amt wants 20 euros tax or....
but a key point is that this might apply to the devs. they have products, taxes, and have steam selling their items. so it's possible they can claim mwhz back on their goods and then pay it again when a game is sold? I don't know. it doesn't really matter, to us, I guess.
because
we are specifically end users as per all agreements with steam. we can't sell anything we get from or via steam. so it's always private tax for us. and ust never requires an address.

very weird.

[dr.desastro]

It matters a bit for private persons as well. You can get your tax back as private person, if the bill covers something work-related to your house like hiring a gardener, janitor or craftsman like an builder, electrician or plumber. You can get a tax back on the work time hence you can request a bill. In that case the invoice is also mandatory as it is the sector with most tax evasion/fraud because of people doing lots of moonlighting there.
There are other cases, where you get taxes back: Everything you invest for your own training or training of your kids or for getting a job, having certain risk-insurances, funding of culture or charity or having to do home-office work could get you taxes back.

But that said: computer games do not fit the bill there. And regarding the SSA: Steam is a market platform for software studios to sell their games to us. We went here, paid money and purchased a digital good from a third party (unles it has something to do with Counter Strike). No matter how they turn it there to invoke the apparition they are doing a different business and therefore needing other rules or the rules do not apply in their case. But this is lagal stuff to be sorted out by proper authorities as the private user simply cannot afford legal counsel for let alone a process in a different country.

[Gambit-3k]

Originally posted by dr.desastro:

It matters a bit for private persons as well. You can get your tax back as private person, if the bill covers something work-related to your house like hiring a gardener, janitor or craftsman like an builder, electrician or plumber. You can get a tax back on the work time hence you can request a bill. In that case the invoice is also mandatory as it is the sector with most tax evasion/fraud because of people doing lots of moonlighting there.
There are other cases, where you get taxes back: Everything you invest for your own training or training of your kids or for getting a job, having certain risk-insurances, funding of culture or charity or having to do home-office work could get you taxes back.

But that said: computer games do not fit the bill there. And regarding the SSA: Steam is a market platform for software studios to sell their games to us. We went here, paid money and purchased a digital good from a third party (unles it has something to do with Counter Strike). No matter how they turn it there to invoke the apparition they are doing a different business and therefore needing other rules or the rules do not apply in their case. But this is lagal stuff to be sorted out by proper authorities as the private user simply cannot afford legal counsel for let alone a process in a different country.

I hadn't really thought much about this stuff before, but Steam does actually sell productivity software that can be used for contract work. I don't think that's the reason for the change, but it would be interesting if it played a part none the less, which to be extra clear I'm not saying it did.

To be honest, I don't really follow (understand) much of what is being discussed in this thread at this point, but you just made me think about the fact that some people can make money using software sold on Steam.

[dr.desastro]

This is correct, but then again, they are listed as entrepreneurs and need to have a mandatory VAT ID. They could get back the VAT taxes paid to steam from the revenue office thus will require a bill. Then their data is public data as being an entrepreneur and a business makes you kind of a public person, while we private persons are regarded as such and our private data is not public, but even protected. For tax reasons, invoices from steam are totally optional and not needed as we cannot do anything with them taxwise.

I can guess, Steam has to deduct tax on imported goods so they need the country information to pay the correct revenue office or get their VAT back, maybe even to the point of city/county if specific revenue offices are to be addressed.

As the taxes are ping-ponging between sellers and revenue offices, I can see the following problematics if the entities sit in different countries with different VAT. Imagine for example Steam 'buying' a product in country A with lower VAT than the one where the sale happened, where they get the VAT back. Technically, Steam would 'win' money there and states will try to put a stopper on that. Vice versa, selling to a country with lower VAT makes Steam lose money, which they would like to put a stopper upon, as well. However, I still cannot see, why there is more information required than 'sold to private person in country X' (which is in fact already known by Valve as we created an account there)

Ironically and if so: having to pay a tax on imported goods makes you a seller of, well, goods, right?

[JVC]

Originally posted by dr.desastro:

I can guess, Steam has to deduct tax on imported goods so they need the country information to pay the correct revenue office or get their VAT back, maybe even to the point of city/county if specific revenue offices are to be addressed.

...
Ironically and if so: having to pay a tax on imported goods makes you a seller of, well, goods, right?

Steam doesn't require a copy of a physical id when you sign up. My bank requires to see two types of physical government issued id if you want to open an account, and scans of those are kept on file. That's to comply with tax laws.

Steam only requires you to choose your country from a drop-down list but there is no verification at all. Anyone that hopes to get games cheaper because they list their country of residence as Zimbabwe, Somalia or somewhere similarly destitute will do that.

Collecting customer information for each sale means that steam has a better case against allegations of tax fraud. After all, a fraudulent customer will have to remember the same bogus customer information everytime.

And no, paying a tax on something doesn't make you a seller. It means that you pay a tax ordered by your country of residence or the country in which you're conducting a trade.

By definition, a tax is a payment to a government which is not linked to getting anything tangible in return and where you have no recourse against paying it.

[dr.desastro]

'Steam doesn't require a copy of a physical id when you sign up. My bank requires to see two types of physical government issued id if you want to open an account, and scans of those are kept on file. That's to comply with tax laws.'

Correct, this is applying for law in that special case. They are required to see and copy your ID and need your tax-ID and certificate of birth. Guess this has something to do with a counter-money-laundring law. That covers financial businesses in general that may make a copy of your ID while others must not do so to comply to other laws like the DSVGS. Copying an ID is an exception, not the rule - but frankly, I must admit, that many people do not know said rules and exceptions.

Giving some more thought: I really would be pacified, if there was some kind of official statement that explains to us why the step is taken, on behalf on which law to be able to look it up myself and what they do with the data i.e. how long they keep it, who gets it and more important: who doesn't. I have no problem, if said information simply was sent to my local revenue office and kept by the officials. They are a non-profit organisation and have my trust. In that case, I would enter my data to help fighting fraud and abide laws and help stopping circumventing or abusing them.

I just want my data kept secure and not abused for marketing reasons. That is all and I will throw a wrench into the gears of anyone trying to, if able.

[RiO]

Originally posted by Dr.Shadowds 🐉:

I'm just sitting here waiting on the claims few people made that their EU or their country going to take action, yet been few months, now breaking into the 4th month of the year with nothing to show as of yet still.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682836556

The investigation into Valve; Bandai Namco, Capcom, Focus Home, Koch Media and ZeniMax practice of applying geo-blocking and price differentiation within the internal EU market took two years before they were finally charged.

These things take time.

Also; proper protocol for nationally appointed watchdog authorities is usually to not disclose information regarding the status and/or existence of an ongoing investigation when communicating to you about a complaint you may have filed. (I know for a fact this is the case for e.g. the Dutch appointed authority.)

Originally posted by crunchyfrog:

No, but contract conditions you agree to are.

Nobody is contesting the terms of service and the fact that those with Steam user accounts accepted that Valve may require their personal information when making a purchase, for the purposes of complying with tax regulation.

People are contesting whether Valve actually requires this information by law in the first place - i.e. if they should not be able to make do with less.

That's a very important nuance.

Originally posted by crunchyfrog:

Unless of course, you can adequately demonstrate where I'm wrong and the Steam Subscriber Agreement is as invalid as you say. I'm keen to find out if I'm in error.

There's the now infamously famous French case regarding resale, which Valve is contesting and will appeal. Apparently it covered more than just the right to resell and also took shots at other parts of the SSA, which the Paris district court disagreed with.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/09/19/steam-should-let-users-resell-games-french-court-rules/

Dig into that more, maybe?
French isn't my fortè, so I'll pass.

[Stormy™]

wow id not cool

[Γαῖα]

'Steam doesn't require a copy of a physical id when you sign up. My bank requires to see two types of physical government issued id if you want to open an account, and scans of those are kept on file. That's to comply with tax laws.'

You cant compare the two and no its just not for tax purposes. Its also for citizenship purposes and assurance/insurance purposes relating to credit and lets not forget security.

At this current juncture no law supports the processing of personal data merely to register with steams website but with the way the world is going all Orwellian that could and may well change.

[Γαῖα]

Humble bundle has finally joined steam in needing to secure your location for tax purposes BUT

all you have to do is click a single button to denote your country location oblivious to the purchase screen and the jobs done, no need to enter name and address. Even if you dont select one, it does it off your IP location.

Now some will argue but humble dont do vouchers, true but humble isnt preventing someone from say the USA using a friends card from Iceland and thus having to put down Iceland details during the card purchase.

This proves as does the fact steam itself does not stop you using someone elses card from a foreign country different to your own that the full details of ones name and home address isnt warranted.

[Dr.Shadowds 🐉]

Can you load funds into humble wallet?

[endrsgm]

lets pretend its because you can load funds.

what about when i use a steam card that i bought in germany, my ip address is germany, the operating system is in german, i say i live in germany ... why the demand for a street address then? germany doesnt care where i live in germany. its all going to the same place...

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Γαῖα:

Humble bundle has finally joined steam in needing to secure your location for tax purposes BUT

all you have to do is click a single button to denote your country location oblivious to the purchase screen and the jobs done, no need to enter name and address. Even if you dont select one, it does it off your IP location.

Now some will argue but humble dont do vouchers, true but humble isnt preventing someone from say the USA using a friends card from Iceland and thus having to put down Iceland details during the card purchase.

This proves as does the fact steam itself does not stop you using someone elses card from a foreign country different to your own that the full details of ones name and home address isnt warranted.

Different people will decide to handle the issue's different ways. Someone might turn around and claim humble is not secure enough, and not doing enough to validate their location now as you pointed out that it's easy to circumvent.

Sadly it doesn't prove anything, except what was said months ago in that your going to see more and more sites start locking that down and requiring more information to comply with the upcoming changes which are not yet mandatory.