About the future of Steam, because of Play Anywhere (Microsoft)

[DR]

About the future of Steam, because of Play Anywhere (Microsoft)

Do you think Steam could end up because of Microsoft, to be precise, because of Play Anywhere? I do not know if everyone knows, but Microsoft now has the power to play on two platforms, if you buy the game on PC in the Microsoft store, you can play on the Xbox too without having to buy two versions of the game, thinks I would like your opinion

I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong place.

[DR]

I thank all the comments, thank you all thank you very much for coming here!
And sorry for my English, I do not know how to speak very well.

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

CrossPlay on microsoft is 'nice' but it has a lot of major problems that hamper it

Firstly it has the exact same issues that GOG has. Steam is the curator for GOG and PlayAnywhere. it fundamentally is. Stuff only ends up on those other platforms once its popular on Steam. So unless its a Microsoft 1st party game where they're gonna make it Win10 only straight out of the gate, everything else goes through Steam first regardless. Then it becomes popular, then the dev wants to get it on consoles, then they integrate playanywhere. But by that time you're basically at 'peak' and you probably already bought it on steam if you were even remotely interested. So sure xbox users get a free copy on PC. But xbox users dont care about it being on PC. PC users by and large would have already bought it on steam so its redundant that the console version comes wiht a PC version.

Second microsoft has so few tentpole franchises taht people WANT to play. And MS hasn't even put Halo on Play Anywhere, which is literally the only thing people probably would want that is an xbox exclusive. This ties into the recent 'rumours' that MS was going to buy out steam ( which is dumb but I have another post for that). They have nothing to leverage the xbox plaform to PC users and console users. The few win10 PC exclusives they've done have bombed out pretty spectacularly (Quantum break anyone, oh and I just got that on Humble too). Microsofts problems on the console are paralleled by their issues on PC. They don't have content that really makes people want to 'switch'. Especially when the switch is from the #1 store on the PC with all your friends and all new games on it before it ends up on xbox

Fundamentally the reasons steam is successful is the same reasons why a game wont end up on xbox. Steam is more dev friendly. Easy to get games on steam. No certification required. Zero cost to do any kind of patch whether 10GB or 1MB in size. Unless Microsoft is throwing a dev metric tons of money to make a game a Win10 exclusive, why woudl a dev put a game on Windows 10 but not steam. Win10 store is the laughing stock of the app community. No one wants to be on it. There's not a lot of upsides to making your game win10 exclusive unless you're wanting MS to be your publisher so you get tons of up front money to do so. Companies might to a timed exclusive in exhange for money, but most devs need ALL revenue streams so they can't afford not to be on the #1 platform on the PC side unless MS sends them tons of money to make up for that lost revenue.

Ultimately PlayAnywhere has the same issues that all faux competitors to steam have. They copy steam in all the wrong ways and then wonder why they are 'that other client i install other than steam"

Yes it's true, thank you for making that clearer, thank you for your help, thank you so much!

Escrito originalmente por computerchy:

what i thinking is microsoft and steam have to cooperate if microsoft guys are thinking to make their store better , let valve get rights to manage your store and run their policy to support game makers and devs , and microsoft fot XBOX , personally i see some games are better to be run on TVs rather than PC , XBOX will be a big help , ( steamlink + contoller , steam machine ..... ! , XBOX would solve and achieve what couldnt steam do for living room ) , and the devs got less headaches optimising their games for known console specification to make their games run smoothly for everyone , thats the benifits i see ( yea and then no more thumbs down review because a game is not running )

I agree with you!

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Let's not forget the day that Microsoft's Play Anywhere resulted in people who bought CoD IW on the windows store couldn't play it with any other PC game owner and they had to issue a lot of refunds.

Yes it's true, but I think they can improve, before the xbox live was not so good either ...

[SᴄʀᴀᴘᴘʏCᴏᴄᴏ]

Its kinda alarming 😥😥

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Let's not forget the day that Microsoft's Play Anywhere resulted in people who bought CoD IW on the windows store couldn't play it with any other PC game owner and they had to issue a lot of refunds.

To me the value propostion on PlayAnywhere isn't being able to play with other PC users, but with other Xbox users. They shoudl have sent tons of money to Activision to make that work

[Tito Shivan]

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

To me the value propostion on PlayAnywhere isn't being able to play with other PC users, but with other Xbox users. They shoudl have sent tons of money to Activision to make that work

But then we get to the complaints about the PC players moping the floor with their console counterparts.

Still, splitting the PC gaming market didn't make them good advertising on this case.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

But then we get to the complaints about the PC players moping the floor with their console counterparts.

Still, splitting the PC gaming market didn't make them good advertising on this case.

Wasn't there a complaint in Overwatch on console about users using a mouse and keyboard adapter? Even Blizzard said it wasn't fair and demanded that either it be stopped from being used or becomes natively supported as it give users and advantage over controllers.

They even nerfed Torbjorn's turret damage by 30% only on console because of complaints of dying due to it's precision of a controller.

https://www.polygon.com/2016/6/26/12033062/overwatch-torbjorn-nerfed-consoles

Kotaku, which first noticed the exchange, pointed out that Torbjorn's turrets are too accurate for a console population playing with gamepads, where on PC where mouse-and-keyboard allows greater precision, the character doesn't throw the game out of balance.

Couldn't imagine the complaints of a PC vs console crossover of such a game, nor the balance issues involved.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

To me the value propostion on PlayAnywhere isn't being able to play with other PC users, but with other Xbox users. They shoudl have sent tons of money to Activision to make that work

But then we get to the complaints about the PC players moping the floor with their console counterparts.

Still, splitting the PC gaming market didn't make them good advertising on this case.

My perspective is from Microsoft. You want to leverage your strong leverage on the console side to strengthen the PC market's WIndows 10 store. People aer buying games digitally on xbox so that's not the problem. The problem is no one is using the iwndows 10 store. Your predominant customers are going to be people who buy it on console digitaly, then happen to go to PC jsut from a pure numbers game

Deal with the balance issues later. Microsoft's prime directive should be to get every ame in playanywhere usable via crossplay as well. It's literally the only real value proposition th program has. Untehter from the steam store, then go fully windows 10 with microsoft's azure platform and have xbox/pc cross MP to solve the "no one is playing the game" problem.

[DR]

http://idgnow.com.br/internet/2016/07/26/microsoft-planeja-acabar-lentamente-com-steam-acusa-ceo-da-epic/

The text is in Portuguese, but I'll leave it here for you translated into English, look at this and tell me, what do you think ?!

Microsoft plans to end "slowly" with Steam, accuses CEO of Epic

In a recent interview, Tim Sweeney said that Redmond company will use Windows 10 to make competing problematic and raise its Windows Store.

Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney still thinks Microsoft is trying to destroy the PC as an open platform. But now your statements are even stronger.

In an interview for Edge magazine, the executive said Microsoft will slowly introduce bugs into rival PC games stores such as Steam. In the meantime, he says, the Redmond company will push the Windows Store (and Universal Windows Plataform) as an alternative, for anyone who does not use Steam any more.

"Slowly, over the next five years, they (Microsoft) are going to force patches on Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and with more problems. They will never completely destroy it, but will continue to do so until, in five years, people are so full of Steam problems that Windows Store will seem like an ideal alternative. This is exactly what they did with previous competitors in other areas. Now they're going to do it with Steam, "Sweeney said.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Escrito originalmente por DarioLBR:

http://idgnow.com.br/internet/2016/07/26/microsoft-planeja-acabar-lentamente-com-steam-acusa-ceo-da-epic/

The text is in Portuguese, but I'll leave it here for you translated into English, look at this and tell me, what do you think ?!

Microsoft plans to end "slowly" with Steam, accuses CEO of Epic

In a recent interview, Tim Sweeney said that Redmond company will use Windows 10 to make competing problematic and raise its Windows Store.

Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney still thinks Microsoft is trying to destroy the PC as an open platform. But now your statements are even stronger.

In an interview for Edge magazine, the executive said Microsoft will slowly introduce bugs into rival PC games stores such as Steam. In the meantime, he says, the Redmond company will push the Windows Store (and Universal Windows Plataform) as an alternative, for anyone who does not use Steam any more.

"Slowly, over the next five years, they (Microsoft) are going to force patches on Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and with more problems. They will never completely destroy it, but will continue to do so until, in five years, people are so full of Steam problems that Windows Store will seem like an ideal alternative. This is exactly what they did with previous competitors in other areas. Now they're going to do it with Steam, "Sweeney said.

That is an opinion of one developer and it has been a while since, with no signs of it being true. It would also violate many US laws if they did.

Full english version if anyone wants to read it.

http://www.pcgamer.com/tim-sweeney-thinks-microsoft-will-make-steam-progressively-worse-with-windows-10-patches/

Then there is this one that points out flaws in his idea of UWP.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney-thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/

But, on the other hand, this is neglecting to consider some important details. For example, UWP is built on Win32. It is a fairly large subset of Win32, and it runs in a sandboxed environment, but there's no clear path for Microsoft to completely strip Win32 from Windows without also removing UWP.

There was even an update to it a year latter.

http://www.pcgamer.com/tim-sweeney-microsoft-uwp-is-still-woefully-inadequate/

[Jerry]

Microsoft intentionally introducing bugs into their new system to trouble competitors in games distribution appears highly unlikely. But even if this was the case (or if the new Windows proves too troublesome in other ways), it would rather lead to companies and users focussing on different operating systems, be it older Windows versions or something outside of Microsoft.

[NeXuS23]

Escrito originalmente por DarioLBR:

http://idgnow.com.br/internet/2016/07/26/microsoft-planeja-acabar-lentamente-com-steam-acusa-ceo-da-epic/

The text is in Portuguese, but I'll leave it here for you translated into English, look at this and tell me, what do you think ?!

Microsoft plans to end "slowly" with Steam, accuses CEO of Epic

In a recent interview, Tim Sweeney said that Redmond company will use Windows 10 to make competing problematic and raise its Windows Store.

Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney still thinks Microsoft is trying to destroy the PC as an open platform. But now your statements are even stronger.

In an interview for Edge magazine, the executive said Microsoft will slowly introduce bugs into rival PC games stores such as Steam. In the meantime, he says, the Redmond company will push the Windows Store (and Universal Windows Plataform) as an alternative, for anyone who does not use Steam any more.

"Slowly, over the next five years, they (Microsoft) are going to force patches on Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and with more problems. They will never completely destroy it, but will continue to do so until, in five years, people are so full of Steam problems that Windows Store will seem like an ideal alternative. This is exactly what they did with previous competitors in other areas. Now they're going to do it with Steam, "Sweeney said.

There is another much easier method if they really want that, don't allow Denuvo on Windows Store (UWP is more secure anyway with its kernel level DRM and has no impact on performance) and then introduce some security patches that kills Denuvo for Windows 10/8/7 like happened already with Starforce / Securom / Safedisc,...

And voila, killed three birds with one stone, people will update to Windows 10 and get their AAA Titles from the Windows 10 store and Steam suddenly isn't attractive anymore for AAA Titles. Of course steam then could also disallow Denuvo on their platform, but because steam then lacks of an UWP alternative, this wouldn't solve the issue.

And that way they can't even be accused to sabbotage the steam platforms, after all it's not their business if some third party DRM that is widespread on steam for AAA Titles doesn't work anymore because of security concerns.

I don't believe they do that now, but it still would be a very nasty and efficient method.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por NeXuS23:

And voila, killed three birds with one stone, people will update to Windows 10 and get their AAA Titles from the Windows 10 store and Steam suddenly isn't attractive anymore for AAA Titles. Of course steam then could also disallow Denuvo on their platform, but because steam then lacks of an UWP alternative, this wouldn't solve the issue.

Note this only applies to the ultra delusional 'anti denuvo' crowd which is smaller than the linux advocate population. The business strategy of "lets pander to this ultra loud but totally ignorant minority when millions of people are already using the product without issue, oh but lets also migrate to a platform everyone hates and has zero value too, oh and we're alos going to lose out on tons of sales becauase we're not on the #1 digital platform on the market."

Yes this is a totally sound business strategy. And it worked great for all those games that were windows 10 only games. Oh wait, thye dind't work. And ever game dev knows it failed spectacularly. Unless MS is going to drive truckloads of money to you for a Windows 10 exclusive, no one is going to bother doing this for the crazy anti-denuvo market as opposed to the sane thriving million copy market on steam.

Lets also look at the vast irony of an anti-denovo fanatic who screams about DRM, wanting the layered DRM of UWP on their games. Oh and lets also ignore that Denovo doesn't really impact how the game works, while UWP DOES in many many ways that MS is so slow to fix (overlays? BAH who uses those! wha tyou want to disable vsync? Insanity! ok maybe we'll try to actaully fix that, but not for you laptop users though!). UWP does to games what Xinput did to DirectInput. Take something that works fine and make it objectively WORSE in every way possible under the sun. Then doesn't bother to innovate in any way shape or form once entrenched because they don't have to. To the point where Steam is literally having to reinvent Direct Input from scratch because Microsoft can't do its damn job

You are literally advocating for replacing a DRM taht doesn't impact how your games works in any meaningful way, with another DRM scheme that actively does impact your gameplay in non trivial ways. Why are you in such a hurry to upgrade from a flick on the nose with a feather, to being punched in to gonads by Mike Tyson.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por DarioLBR:

http://idgnow.com.br/internet/2016/07/26/microsoft-planeja-acabar-lentamente-com-steam-acusa-ceo-da-epic/

Ok Tim is a bit crazy on the details of what he things is going to happen. But the overall premise is correct. Microsoft is trying to kill steam. Or more specifically trying to kill win32 executables. The overall fear is legit, even if Tim gets the details of it very wrong.

Its important to consider the history of this which goes back to windows 8. Windows 8 launches and its new fancy UI Metro. Microsoft is VERY clear in its intention that Metro is the new desktop UI and the 'desktop' as you know it will be gone. Metro tiles only can run if you use the equivalent of UWP. Microsoft is telling everyone, Metro is the new standard. Build in Metro or GTFO.

So if you're Gabe and you see Windows 8, and hear Microsoft saying Metro is the new standard. What you hear is "You are killing Steam". Because UWP apps can't launch other apps. Which means steam can't launch other games. Which means steam is dead if Win8 is a success.

http://www.pcgamer.com/gabe-newell-i-think-windows-8-is-a-catastrophe-for-everyone-in-the-pc-space/

Tim sweeny and Gabe Newell are on the same page here. Win8 success means Metro is the standard desktop which means steam cannot exist. Period.

This is why Gabe at this point begins to diversify Steam into things like SteamOS, and pushes hard for Mac and Linux gaming. He's pivoting Steam to be competitive in what appears to be a world in which Steam cannot exist because of Microsoft. The only reason this didn't happen is because MS botched WIn8's launch. But you do have to understand the fear that MS was going to kill Steam wasn't unfounded. It was a real and present threat.

Fast forward to today, and Microsoft is STILL trying to kill Steam. How? Windows 10 S. It's basically Metro 2.0 with a fancy "educational" sticker on it to make it more palatable. But make no mistake Microsoft is trying very very hard to kill win32 and thus by extension, steam.

[NeXuS23]

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

Escrito originalmente por NeXuS23:

And voila, killed three birds with one stone, people will update to Windows 10 and get their AAA Titles from the Windows 10 store and Steam suddenly isn't attractive anymore for AAA Titles. Of course steam then could also disallow Denuvo on their platform, but because steam then lacks of an UWP alternative, this wouldn't solve the issue.

Note this only applies to the ultra delusional 'anti denuvo' crowd which is smaller than the linux advocate population. The business strategy of "lets pander to this ultra loud but totally ignorant minority when millions of people are already using the product without issue, oh but lets also migrate to a platform everyone hates and has zero value too, oh and we're alos going to lose out on tons of sales becauase we're not on the #1 digital platform on the market."

Yes this is a totally sound business strategy. And it worked great for all those games that were windows 10 only games. Oh wait, thye dind't work. And ever game dev knows it failed spectacularly. Unless MS is going to drive truckloads of money to you for a Windows 10 exclusive, no one is going to bother doing this for the crazy anti-denuvo market as opposed to the sane thriving million copy market on steam.

Lets also look at the vast irony of an anti-denovo fanatic who screams about DRM, wanting the layered DRM of UWP on their games. Oh and lets also ignore that Denovo doesn't really impact how the game works, while UWP DOES in many many ways that MS is so slow to fix (overlays? BAH who uses those! wha tyou want to disable vsync? Insanity! ok maybe we'll try to actaully fix that, but not for you laptop users though!). UWP does to games what Xinput did to DirectInput. Take something that works fine and make it objectively WORSE in every way possible under the sun. Then doesn't bother to innovate in any way shape or form once entrenched because they don't have to. To the point where Steam is literally having to reinvent Direct Input from scratch because Microsoft can't do its damn job

You are literally advocating for replacing a DRM taht doesn't impact how your games works in any meaningful way, with another DRM scheme that actively does impact your gameplay in non trivial ways. Why are you in such a hurry to upgrade from a flick on the nose with a feather, to being punched in to gonads by Mike Tyson.

You don't get it don't you? This would have nothing to do with what you call 'anti-denuvo crowd' if it doesn't work anymore it doesn't work anymore, no matter if you are anti-denuvo or not. And Windows 10 has an safe and lightweight kernel level drm as alternative, while steam has nothing.

Also why migrate to another platform? Windows 10 is an OS first and steam runs on that OS, so there is nothing to migrate only to deinstall or not use and that's it, the WIndows 10 store is also already integrated into the OS anyway, there is nothing to migrate.

But for what you call 'anti-denuvo crowd' for some it could perhaps even be enough to simply not allow denuvo and any third party drm on the Windows 10 store that they get the affected titles there instead. Because you know, to have one DRM is better than 2-4 but anyway that was only an hypothotical idea how that thing from the other post could be done without being accused of sabotage.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por NeXuS23:

You don't get it don't you? This would have nothing to do with what you call 'anti-denuvo crowd'

Oh really because your entire post and post history is basically jsut anti-denuovo madman ranting.

if it doesn't work anymore it doesn't work anymore, no matter if you are anti-denuvo or not.

Hmmm so you are proclaiming that said drm sucks because things like securom were disabled. Hmm who disabled the kernel level hooks that allowed those drm features to work. Oh yeah Microsoft did that! So your idea is to take drm that works fine unless Microsoft decicdes one day to break it, and trust Microsoft to not break their own drm despite the fact that they already did this to other DRM systems. This is a solid idea that can't possibly go wrong at all

Oh and its also funny you want this because you know what will happen if UWP gets enough adoption? That's right, every version of windows will become like Windows 10 S. That means all your DRM free games will no longer work because they're not UWP apps. So your solution is to replace your irrational hate for Denuvo, and replace it with a product that has actively been trying to destroy all your DRM Free games for the past 6 years.

Hurray you basically decided that you hated being moist from low level fog, and your solution was to dive head first into a volcano.

And Windows 10 has an safe and lightweight kernel level drm as alternative, while steam has nothing.

You do realize steam has CEG right?

Also why migrate to another platform? Windows 10 is an OS first and steam runs on that OS, so there is nothing to migrate only to deinstall or not use and that's it, the WIndows 10 store is also already integrated into the OS anyway, there is nothing to migrate.

You do realize that Steamworks is a platform. You do realize that UWP is a platform. ANd yes you're migrating away from Steamworks or DRM free to UWP. Why would I migrate to UWP. There's no benefit to me as a customer. Great I get to use a 3rd party store no one else uses. Oh I can't play games with my PC friends. Oh 'maybe' i can play with my xbox friends 'maybe sorta kinda depends'. Or i could just buy it on steam and at least know it works with my PC friends.

Because you know, to have one DRM is better than 2-4 but anyway that was only an hypothotical idea how that thing from the other post could be done without being accused of sabotage.

Really you'd prefer to have one DRM who's master plan for the past 6 years has been to effectively blocks all previous content ever made on the PC and makes it unusable, instead of Denuvo which is for all intents and purposes invisible? Yes that makes total sense in the upside down and backwards dimension you live in I suppose. Indeed I would much rather be impaled by a giant spear, rather than have 3 tiny needles poked into my hand. 3 is worse than 1 according to you right! And that's what you're advocating because you're so blinded by your irrational hate of Denuvo.

[Hannibal]

Be nice to see some real competition to valve. They've taken their success for granted for too long. However ms sure better work on their download speeds if it hopes to be competitive. I'm already moving some of my purchases over. The fewer incest titles I have to deal with the better.