Epic is starting to worry me

[Quadsword]

Despite massive backlash from their practices, Epic hasn’t let up even slightly. They have financial backing from Disney and Tencent, two of the largest corporations in the world, and a massive cash flow from Fortnite and unreal engine, the former being the most popular game in the world and the latter being the most popular commercial game engine in the world.

I feel like no amount of consumer backlash will stop them getting the monopoly they obviously want. They can just keep throwing money around until they control the entire games industry. I miss the days before mega corporations entered this industry.

[Doko]

TheRandomGuy님이 먼저 게시:

I'm not sure about if Steam could sue Epic Games or not. If anything, I'd say Steam should do two things.

1. Make Wishlist data private and or only available to developers, I mean, seriously, who else needs Wishlist data besides the publisher or developer. Epic is targeting Steam Games via wishlists and therefore doing this would make that practice much harder for Epic to do.

2. Have a clause that states if a game is advertised on Steam, it must launch on Steam. Seriously, Epic and the developers taking those deals are basically abusing the service that Steam provides for developers without allowing Steam to get anything from it, that being advertisement.

Allow me to further add to #1:

Steam should also enclose a contract agreement with each and every dev, that said wishlist data should never be disclosed to any other party outside of Steam. This way, even if EG were to poach those devs, they would be bound by contract to not disclose that data towards EG, thus allowing them some insight into how popular said game is. Epic will then not be able to know just how popular their game is, because said dev is under NDA.

Epic has been acquiring all sorts of data from Steam, and wishlist data is primarily one of their strengths in nabbing these games. Steam should and must prevent that data from leaking to any other competing body.

Also, Steam should limit the data in which devs are allowed to divulge what games friends are playing, because while Epic can obtain friend list data, we aren't exactly sure if they obtain games said friends are playing, because that could easily play another big part in the poaching effort. Limit that data to just devs/Valve, and that will also limit EG's poaching.

#2 is especially important and one I fully agree with. Steam needs to enforce a policy, where devs that market their game for release, should stick to it, or simply not put up a page for a game, that would only be sold somewhere else, rather than Steam, at the last possible minute, or 6 months before launch (which seems to be around the time these deals are made, more or less).

Around the world we've seen contracts and laws, where the competition is not allowed to buy some IP, and abuse their competition by having them advertise for them at the same time. It's a new thing in this industry, but I also think it should be abolished asap, because it'll actively harm Steam's own image in the long-run, the more games that pop up, only to be taken for a whole year, but advertised as *being on Steam*.

We also recently had a dev use Valve tech for their Tetris game, which was then exclusive to EGS, but required Valve tech to run it. Though those were given freely to the devs, I strongly believe that the competition should not have access to it, as they have not paid anything towards said tech, nor Valve itself. Game engines being used for games, to make them, then release said games on other stores is fine, but when it comes to VR tech, made specifically for the use of a headset or API that's for one store, then it should be for that store alone.

[Doko]

Xaelath님이 먼저 게시:

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:

^^This. OPeople keep forgetting that. Alsol add that it will likely be cheaper as well.

Maybe slightly cheaper but I doubt they can discount the game without cutting the game base price.

If they don't cut the price or doesn't drop it below 50% then I can assume there would be lots of riot and rant on the forum later.
People running rampant on discussion, and dropping off negative reviews.

I can't wait to see that .

Watch the devs and journos form yet another tag team, I'm calling that right now, because so far that path has been a common theme in this industry, in regards to PC gaming.

In the journos eyes, consumers are the enemy, and user reviews are also something they completely dislike and disregard, so it's not surprising if journos were to side with devs over dev greediness.

[Ness_and_Sonic]

Andrei님이 먼저 게시:

Just buy it on EPIC if you REALY want it.

And support a spoiled brat bent on dominating the PC market by brute force instead of earning its place? I'm lucky enough to not be interested in most of these games so far, but I would rather buy these games used on console and cheat everyone out of every last penny instead. 88% might sound great, but when the number is 0, 70% of the retail price sounds better.

[Tito Shivan]

Jeff Kaos님이 먼저 게시:

I know a lot of people love Steam and tend to defend every action Valve takes almost like a religion I can't help but wonder if a lot of this pro-Valve/pro-Steam fervor isn't tied into fear.

It's something far more simple. And you've seen it in many other places. It's what I call the 'Honeymoon phase' with a service.

It's not much different from people who love Apple, Google, loved Microsoft or even if you go back in time enough, IBM.

When a service pop up bringing something that makes people's life easier/happier in any way people are easy to 'fall in love with it'... It's what I call the 'honeymoon phase' when everything is bells & whistles.
Eventually -as in every relationship- things change anmd so does people's perception of the service.

And -as in every relationship- some people accept the flaws on the service and keep living together (but with a better understanding of the relationship) and others end the relationship in a hate-spiraling divorce, feeling betrayed and lied...

Or to put it in a TL:DR version: "Steam is not your girlfriend"

So to sum it up. People preaching/hating on a service are part of the natural processes of atributing human characteristincs to goods & services.

Andrei님이 먼저 게시:

Just buy it on EPIC if you REALY want it.

Even if I really wanted it, I wouldn't personally put my money on Epic for the same reasons I don't put my money on Stadia. Both services first have to prove they're not going to go away tomorrow like a fart in the wind.

And it doesn't really happen anything if you don't play a game (or ten, or a hundred) at all. Just that thought is really liberating.

[⎠⎝Zushikatetomoto⎠⎝ UFO]

Tito Shivan님이 먼저 게시:

Jeff Kaos님이 먼저 게시:

I know a lot of people love Steam and tend to defend every action Valve takes almost like a religion I can't help but wonder if a lot of this pro-Valve/pro-Steam fervor isn't tied into fear.

It's something far more simple. And you've seen it in many other places. It's what I call the 'Honeymoon phase' with a service.

It's not much different from people who love Apple, Google, loved Microsoft or even if you go back in time enough, IBM.

When a service pop up bringing something that makes people's life easier/happier in any way people are easy to 'fall in love with it'... It's what I call the 'honeymoon phase' when everything is bells & whistles.
Eventually -as in every relationship- things change anmd so does people's perception of the service.

And -as in every relationship- some people accept the flaws on the service and keep living together (but with a better understanding of the relationship) and others end the relationship in a hate-spiraling divorce, feeling betrayed and lied...

Or to put it in a TL:DR version: "Steam is not your girlfriend"

So to sum it up. People preaching/hating on a service are part of the natural processes of atributing human characteristincs to goods & services.

Andrei님이 먼저 게시:

Just buy it on EPIC if you REALY want it.

Even if I really wanted it, I wouldn't personally put my money on Epic for the same reasons I don't put my money on Stadia. Both services first have to prove they're not going to go away tomorrow like a fart in the wind.

And it doesn't really happen anything if you don't play a game (or ten, or a hundred) at all. Just that thought is really liberating.

Did you hear about the lawsuit against apple, nvidia, epic and some others?
https://www.techradar.com/news/legal-action-could-halt-macbook-and-nvidia-rtx-sales-in-the-us-while-amds-gpus-are-left-alone
https://www.engadget.com/2019/08/26/globalfoundries-sues-tsmc/

[Citizen Cook]

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam/ubisoft-revenue-split

[Dr.Shadowds 🐉]

Citizen Cook님이 먼저 게시:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam/ubisoft-revenue-split

I bet you they won't say it to Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo face, and still getting charged 30%.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Citizen Cook님이 먼저 게시:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam/ubisoft-revenue-split

https://www.polygon.com/2018/12/3/18123649/valve-steam-revenue-sharing

“Starting from October 1, 2018 (i.e. revenues prior to that date are not included), when a game makes over $10 million on Steam, the revenue share for that application will adjust to 75 percent/25 percent on earnings beyond $10 million,” Valve wrote in the official blog post. “At $50 million, the revenue share will adjust to 80 percent/20 percent on earnings beyond $50 million. Revenue includes game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees. Our hope is this change will reward the positive network effects generated by developers of big games, further aligning their interests with Steam and the community.”

I tend to not trust the news, when they don't do their research.

Keep in mind that retail got to keep even more then 30% of a sale and when they went to digital, there was no discount or reduced prices for the games, despite the developers getting more money.

In the end, it doesn't matter who gets what amount between them as it still cost us, the consumer, the same amount.

[Paratech2008]

Don't publishers pay $10 a copy just to publish on the XBOX One/PSX4?

I don't know what Nintendo charges for physical games, or any of them digital.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Paratech2008님이 먼저 게시:

Don't publishers pay $10 a copy just to publish on the XBOX One/PSX4?

I don't know what Nintendo charges for physical games, or any of them digital.

Yes, plus a % of the sale and they charge for the SDK/Devkit as well, to be able to even make the games.

https://www.polygon.com/2013/7/24/4553842/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-develop-for-playstation-4

[Ganger]

Tito Shivan님이 먼저 게시:

It's something far more simple. And you've seen it in many other places. It's what I call the 'Honeymoon phase' with a service.

It's not much different from people who love Apple, Google, loved Microsoft or even if you go back in time enough, IBM.

When a service pop up bringing something that makes people's life easier/happier in any way people are easy to 'fall in love with it'... It's what I call the 'honeymoon phase' when everything is bells & whistles.
Eventually -as in every relationship- things change anmd so does people's perception of the service.

This is beautifully well written. At first I hated steam then I started too love steam, this valve love must of lasted close too a decade but over time I realised I was missing out on some great games just to be loyal to steam, what for ?. The older I was getting, the more my own mindset was changing with age. No longer will I be tied to any brand name out of stupid mis-placed loyalty.

[McGillicutti]

Spawn of Totoro님이 먼저 게시:

Paratech2008님이 먼저 게시:

Don't publishers pay $10 a copy just to publish on the XBOX One/PSX4?

I don't know what Nintendo charges for physical games, or any of them digital.

Yes, plus a % of the sale and they charge for the SDK/Devkit as well, to be able to even make the games.

https://www.polygon.com/2013/7/24/4553842/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-develop-for-playstation-4

Do you know what percentage of domestic sales are by Steam Wallet Cards? I ask because I know Steam loses money on those, and the smaller the amount we purchase the more they lose because retailers appear to want around 15% on top of the 1.50 it takes to make the card with all financial arrangements both domestically and at a worldwide netting level. At least that is what I took from the discussion here at around 38 minutes in, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrvr02SiHY4

This loss, by math, appears to be amplified when we buy an item on sale too, for example for 10 dollars, Steam might net 7 dollars from the Steam Wallet Card sale, and then we buy a game that's 10 dollars since Steam gave us the 10 dollar credit to our account, but as the game was on sale and Steam agreed to pay the publisher 20 dollars or more, steam loses, in fact on that sale, 13 bucks or more. The whole loss leader thing.

If these numbers are inaccurate feel free to correct me but the point that I think isn't made enough is how far Steam has gone and is willing to go for the Customer, as well as Steam. I know Steam is getting enough out of it for their own interests, not to say they wouldn't wish they an get more, but Steam isn't just thinking how to get money and without the customer as an assumed benefactor too in the equation. That's what I like about Steam (unlike Epic, and is good reason to quell any fears), at least in the last few years for sure Steam has been more customer-centric and I believe that treatment of us is just going to grow... I just hope it makes it into all of Steam's policies and areas of management.

[Ganger]

Paratech2008님이 먼저 게시:

Don't publishers pay $10 a copy just to publish on the XBOX One/PSX4?

I don't know what Nintendo charges for physical games, or any of them digital.

I guess that's why console games always cost much to buy in the UK than PC games did.

[Erebus]

McGillicutti님이 먼저 게시:

Spawn of Totoro님이 먼저 게시:

Yes, plus a % of the sale and they charge for the SDK/Devkit as well, to be able to even make the games.

https://www.polygon.com/2013/7/24/4553842/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-develop-for-playstation-4

Do you know what percentage of domestic sales are by Steam Wallet Cards? I ask because I know Steam loses money on those, and the smaller the amount we purchase the more they lose because retailers appear to want around 15% on top of the 1.50 it takes to make the card with all financial arrangements both domestically and at a worldwide netting level. At least that is what I took from the discussion here at around 38 minutes in, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrvr02SiHY4

This loss, by math, appears to be amplified when we buy an item on sale too, for example for 10 dollars, Steam might net 7 dollars from the Steam Wallet Card sale, and then we buy a game that's 10 dollars since Steam gave us the 10 dollar credit to our account, but as the game was on sale and Steam agreed to pay the publisher 20 dollars or more, steam loses, in fact on that sale, 13 bucks or more. The whole loss leader thing.

If these numbers are inaccurate feel free to correct me but the point that I think isn't made enough is how far Steam has gone and is willing to go for the Customer, as well as Steam. I know Steam is getting enough out of it for their own interests, not to say they wouldn't wish they an get more, but Steam isn't just thinking how to get money and without the customer as an assumed benefactor too in the equation. That's what I like about Steam (unlike Epic, and is good reason to quell any fears), at least in the last few years for sure Steam has been more customer-centric and I believe that treatment of us is just going to grow... I just hope it makes it into all of Steam's policies and areas of management.

That's not how sales work on Steam. Publishers are the ones deciding on discounts and promos. Steam isn't eating the MSRP on things, they're just taking a cut on the discounted price. It'd make no sense to do it any other way because things with high MSRP and deep discounts (a favorite of Japanese publishers) would be costing Steam more money than they could make on selling multiple things at MSRP.

[McGillicutti]

Erebus님이 먼저 게시:

McGillicutti님이 먼저 게시:

Do you know what percentage of domestic sales are by Steam Wallet Cards? I ask because I know Steam loses money on those, and the smaller the amount we purchase the more they lose because retailers appear to want around 15% on top of the 1.50 it takes to make the card with all financial arrangements both domestically and at a worldwide netting level. At least that is what I took from the discussion here at around 38 minutes in, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrvr02SiHY4

This loss, by math, appears to be amplified when we buy an item on sale too, for example for 10 dollars, Steam might net 7 dollars from the Steam Wallet Card sale, and then we buy a game that's 10 dollars since Steam gave us the 10 dollar credit to our account, but as the game was on sale and Steam agreed to pay the publisher 20 dollars or more, steam loses, in fact on that sale, 13 bucks or more. The whole loss leader thing.

If these numbers are inaccurate feel free to correct me but the point that I think isn't made enough is how far Steam has gone and is willing to go for the Customer, as well as Steam. I know Steam is getting enough out of it for their own interests, not to say they wouldn't wish they an get more, but Steam isn't just thinking how to get money and without the customer as an assumed benefactor too in the equation. That's what I like about Steam (unlike Epic, and is good reason to quell any fears), at least in the last few years for sure Steam has been more customer-centric and I believe that treatment of us is just going to grow... I just hope it makes it into all of Steam's policies and areas of management.

That's not how sales work on Steam. Publishers are the ones deciding on discounts and promos. Steam isn't eating the MSRP on things, they're just taking a cut on the discounted price. It'd make no sense to do it any other way because things with high MSRP and deep discounts (a favorite of Japanese publishers) would be costing Steam more money than they could make on selling multiple things at MSRP.

Thanks Erebus :)

But Steam still does lose money on the Steam Wallet cards and I wasn't sure if it's exacerbated by a sale or not.

Edit: When I worked in Retail selling software in a store, they had deals like I pointed out. It is how Epic operates so makes me wonder if Sweeney's age, like mine, is the cause of their retail sale design. Sweeney does appear to think money grows on trees.

Edit2: The point of the loss leader is to bring people into the store, hoping you sell them something else that nets high margins. This is why I look at what Epic is doing as a way to get people into their store so they can promote Fortnite to them. The idea is that if they spend money on Fortnite that's money they won't have to spend (budget) on buying games at other stores. The exclusive another gimmick to get people in the door and that's all.