The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel III

The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel III

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Taka 2020 年 4 月 18 日 上午 10:27
Why are the graphics still so bad?
Just curious
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正在显示第 16 - 30 条,共 141 条留言
BeastSlayer 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 2:45 
引用自 Val the Moofia Boss
Trails of Cold Steel 1 + 2 look amazing, thanks to their timeless artstyle. And then it only got better with the lighting implemented in Tokyo Xanadu, and even better with the new models in CS3.

I have to disagree here. Sky / Crossbell 's art style is timeless, however CS1 and 2 looks terrible today even compare to CS3, especially Rean's low poly spiky hairs.
BeastSlayer 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 2:52 
引用自 Kalarual
引用自 Cat Daddy
moans about graphics being bad - 200+ hours of gameplay

FF7 awful remake which is just about graphics and nothing else - 20-30 hours MAX gameplay

The graphics in CS3 are great, they improved upon how they were in CS1 and 2 and got better in 3......why complain about this?
I like how you say I am moaning yet all I asked is "why" and "just curious"

Get out of here edgelord.

Also the remake is fantastic. I'm at 40 hours and haven't entered Shinra yet.


It's a legitimate question. Why in 2020 a game can't get an impressive graphical overhaul when nowadays that's not too hard to do, and we have indie games selling $10 games with vastly superior visuals.

It's a 2017 game. Like I said, the engine they used are quite outdated. I think the reason they are still using it has something to do with Sony helped them financially and technically. They would go bankrupt years ago if Sony didn't helped them, that's why for years they only develop and release on Sony's platform with really old toolset.
Royard 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:01 
引用自 BeastSlayer
引用自 Kalarual
I like how you say I am moaning yet all I asked is "why" and "just curious"

Get out of here edgelord.

Also the remake is fantastic. I'm at 40 hours and haven't entered Shinra yet.


It's a legitimate question. Why in 2020 a game can't get an impressive graphical overhaul when nowadays that's not too hard to do, and we have indie games selling $10 games with vastly superior visuals.

It's a 2017 game. Like I said, the engine they used are quite outdated. I think the reason they are still using it has something to do with Sony helped them financially and technically. They would go bankrupt years ago if Sony didn't helped them, that's why for years they only develop and release on Sony's platform with really old toolset.
I would like to know where are you got this "Sony helped them financially and technically" info? Ofc its all about money-time investment. Personally i prefer art over raw graphic power.
Wazhai 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:18 
You guys probably won't be thrilled to learn that Falcom, a very bastion of computer science excellence as we all know, are banking on creating and using their own custom, in-house proprietary engine in the future.

https://www.gematsu.com/2019/12/falcom-developing-proprietary-game-engine
Taka 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:20 
引用自 Wazhai
You guys probably won't be thrilled to learn that Falcom, a very bastion of computer science excellence as we all know, are banking on creating and using their own custom, in-house proprietary engine in the future.

https://www.gematsu.com/2019/12/falcom-developing-proprietary-game-engine
eeek.
Royard 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:22 
On the contrary. Thats a great news. They will build engine that fits their vision. Maybe the next Kiseki game (not Hajimari ofc) will be on this new engine.
Wazhai 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:23 
Also relevant, from here[www.eurogamer.net]:
"We've actually had Epic come in the past to give us a walkthrough of Unreal," says Kondo. "I don't want to say bad things about any company's engine, but when you're using a different engine, and problems arise, it's often difficult to figure out if this a problem on our side or with the engine. That could take a lot of time and energy."

The Trails of Cold Steel games have been made with PhyreEngine developed by Sony, which hasn't been without its issues. "To give a very specific example in Trails of Cold Steel 3, there's a part where 40 different character models are on screen at the same time," he explains. "PhyreEngine is not really equipped to support that, so internally, we have to adjust the coding and adjust the engine to make this happen. It turns out that this extra trouble isn't so much more work than making our own engine to begin with."

There's actually a split between the team's veteran programmers who would rather make their own engine while the younger staff question why they don't just use Unreal. Kondo laughs, "Even within the company, we can't come to a consensus!"
BeastSlayer 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:30 
引用自 Royard
引用自 BeastSlayer

It's a 2017 game. Like I said, the engine they used are quite outdated. I think the reason they are still using it has something to do with Sony helped them financially and technically. They would go bankrupt years ago if Sony didn't helped them, that's why for years they only develop and release on Sony's platform with really old toolset.
I would like to know where are you got this "Sony helped them financially and technically" info? Ofc its all about money-time investment. Personally i prefer art over raw graphic power.

I hate to dig up all the old stories. I assume that most Falcom fans know that Falcom is one of the oldest Japanese game developer still around, and it used to exclusively develop PC games. In fact the Trails of Sky were originally PC games. You know PC gaming really died in Japan years ago, Falcom almost went bankrupt before Sony stepped in.
Dragon (已封禁) 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:33 
引用自 BeastSlayer
you will find a lot of smaller titles that has amazing graphics. For example A Plague Tale, which is pretty much indie, has great environment and character details because it is using CryEngine..

And that game is what, 12 - 15 hours long at max?

So, that shortness alone makes it already not worth the tradeoff for it's good graphics. Still much better for Falcom to stick with their "bad graphics" and 100+ hour long games.
Royard 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:37 
引用自 BeastSlayer
引用自 Royard
I would like to know where are you got this "Sony helped them financially and technically" info? Ofc its all about money-time investment. Personally i prefer art over raw graphic power.

I hate to dig up all the old stories. I assume that most Falcom fans know that Falcom is one of the oldest Japanese game developer still around, and it used to exclusively develop PC games. In fact the Trails of Sky were originally PC games. You know PC gaming really died in Japan years ago, Falcom almost went bankrupt before Sony stepped in.
Still not sure where are you got this "sony steppen in". They were pc developers, then switched to consoles coz console market are more popular in Japan. At least i didnt know about sony part in all of this.
Dragon (已封禁) 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:40 
引用自 Kalarual

It's a legitimate question. Why in 2020 a game can't get an impressive graphical overhaul when nowadays that's not too hard to do, and we have indie games selling $10 games with vastly superior visuals.

It may be it a legitimate question, but it also has a legitimate answer which isn't the one you were hoping for.

The answer is because with top line graphics come other tradeoffs that aren't worth the cost that comes with having top line graphics.

How long are those $10 indie games with vastly superior visuals? Are they 100+ hours long? If not, then they are already inferior to Falcom games by default.

And if we start comparing the content between them vs. Falcom games, no doubt there will also be a great multitude of other areas in which they also come up way short.
最后由 Dragon 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:41
BeastSlayer 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:44 
引用自 Wazhai
Also relevant, from here[www.eurogamer.net]:
"We've actually had Epic come in the past to give us a walkthrough of Unreal," says Kondo. "I don't want to say bad things about any company's engine, but when you're using a different engine, and problems arise, it's often difficult to figure out if this a problem on our side or with the engine. That could take a lot of time and energy."

The Trails of Cold Steel games have been made with PhyreEngine developed by Sony, which hasn't been without its issues. "To give a very specific example in Trails of Cold Steel 3, there's a part where 40 different character models are on screen at the same time," he explains. "PhyreEngine is not really equipped to support that, so internally, we have to adjust the coding and adjust the engine to make this happen. It turns out that this extra trouble isn't so much more work than making our own engine to begin with."

There's actually a split between the team's veteran programmers who would rather make their own engine while the younger staff question why they don't just use Unreal. Kondo laughs, "Even within the company, we can't come to a consensus!"

That's really sad...

I guess you could still create amazing art style like Persona 5 to work around the outdated engine, but using and maintaining such old engine on future console is going to be a lot more work not to mention the limit of scope.(like the limitation of on screen characters, objects, map sizes)...


Falcom is really stubborn, the last time it insisted on developing PC game almost cost the whole company. I hope they will make that jump one day instead of clinging on outdated tools like it's their tradition or something.
BeastSlayer 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:48 
引用自 Royard
引用自 BeastSlayer

I hate to dig up all the old stories. I assume that most Falcom fans know that Falcom is one of the oldest Japanese game developer still around, and it used to exclusively develop PC games. In fact the Trails of Sky were originally PC games. You know PC gaming really died in Japan years ago, Falcom almost went bankrupt before Sony stepped in.
Still not sure where are you got this "sony steppen in". They were pc developers, then switched to consoles coz console market are more popular in Japan. At least i didnt know about sony part in all of this.

Falcom had a deal with Sony after the disaster that's Zwei, and the deal saved the Company. The Cold Steel engine was provided by Sony as well.
Wazhai 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:53 
引用自 BeastSlayer
引用自 Wazhai
Also relevant, from here[www.eurogamer.net]:
"We've actually had Epic come in the past to give us a walkthrough of Unreal," says Kondo. "I don't want to say bad things about any company's engine, but when you're using a different engine, and problems arise, it's often difficult to figure out if this a problem on our side or with the engine. That could take a lot of time and energy."

The Trails of Cold Steel games have been made with PhyreEngine developed by Sony, which hasn't been without its issues. "To give a very specific example in Trails of Cold Steel 3, there's a part where 40 different character models are on screen at the same time," he explains. "PhyreEngine is not really equipped to support that, so internally, we have to adjust the coding and adjust the engine to make this happen. It turns out that this extra trouble isn't so much more work than making our own engine to begin with."

There's actually a split between the team's veteran programmers who would rather make their own engine while the younger staff question why they don't just use Unreal. Kondo laughs, "Even within the company, we can't come to a consensus!"

That's really sad...

I guess you could still create amazing art style like Persona 5 to work around the outdated engine, but using and maintaining such old engine on future console is going to be a lot more work not to mention the limit of scope.(like the limitation of on screen characters, objects, map sizes)...

Falcom is really stubborn, the last time it insisted on developing PC game almost cost the whole company. I hope they will make that jump one day instead of clinging on outdated tools like it's their tradition or something.
I think you misunderstood something. They will be ditching PhyreEngine that's used in Cold Steel (and Hajimari). Instead, they're making a brand-new engine from the ground up.

It's concerning for me because:
  • They don't have a glowing technological track record. Their games are far from programming marvels, are often programmed weirdly (see Ys 8 porting trouble with their old in-house engine), and are often unoptimised. E.g. I doubt PhyreEngine was truly incapable of showing 40 unique models on screen without tanking performance. It's more like Falcom couldn't manage to utilise it properly and find a way to achieve what they wanted. They have also always been a generation behind with graphics.
  • Making and maintaining an engine from scratch is a MASSIVE undertaking. Making an actually good engine is even harder. They will have to face problems that have been overcome many times by the hundreds of dedicated engine developers employed by e.g. Epic.
  • They have like 3-7 programmers on their games' credits, in a company of slightly more than 60 people total. It would be a herculean task to make a half-decent in-house engine with that few people. They don't plan to expand significantly to accommodate that, either.
I would be truly elated if Falcom could prove me wrong, but as you can see, I'm not too hopeful right now.
最后由 Wazhai 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 3:54
XenoEvil 2020 年 4 月 18 日 下午 4:02 
引用自 Dragon
引用自 BeastSlayer
you will find a lot of smaller titles that has amazing graphics. For example A Plague Tale, which is pretty much indie, has great environment and character details because it is using CryEngine..

And that game is what, 12 - 15 hours long at max?

So, that shortness alone makes it already not worth the tradeoff for it's good graphics. Still much better for Falcom to stick with their "bad graphics" and 100+ hour long games.
That is a ridiculous comparison. Plague tale is not a rpg. It's length has nothing to due to trading game length for better graphic, plague tales is a linear narrative experience. Regardless of what people prefer, the games length doesn't do falcom any favors if they leave the game off in one the worst cliffhangers in video game.
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发帖日期: 2020 年 4 月 18 日 上午 10:27
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