GrandChase

GrandChase

genoxflame Dec 31, 2021 @ 2:33am
What did you do to Dio
As a long time Dio main i have to rant again about how hard KOG ruined this character. Why would you remove his passives, Why would you make blink 14 seconds long, why is his damage so low, why is his AP recovery gutted, and to further pile on who possessed any of you to kill onrush the way you did while nerfing EVERY other thing about him. Dio's role is an all arounder DPS unit. The only way for this character to function is by dropping cash or saving your SB scrolls for him its ridiculous and if Dio is releasing this bad what will you do to the other AP characters; or is the vision to have Dio be the useless elesis of the AP characters?
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Showing 1-15 of 38 comments
76561198258341540 Dec 31, 2021 @ 5:54am 
his ap recovery buffs up with job changes btw also i think they built in his ap recovery pasives into his natual ap recovery
Last edited by masteroshawott; Dec 31, 2021 @ 5:59am
Nebura Dec 31, 2021 @ 6:07am 
he's sh8 rn, kinda regret spending for rexion set after i returned to the game hearing that he was released.
AliceShiki Dec 31, 2021 @ 11:28am 
I mean... Nerfs to Dio were necessary. Ap Recovery and Damage were probably the main one that needed nerfs.

I do think that they probably went a bit too far with the nerfs, but like... It's not like they nerfed anything that didn't deserve a nerf, I think? It's more like they nerfed stuff a bit too hard.

I think he'll take a buff in the next patch, but well... Who knows when that is coming... >.>
genoxflame Jan 1, 2022 @ 11:02pm 
Originally posted by AliceShiki:
I mean... Nerfs to Dio were necessary. Ap Recovery and Damage were probably the main one that needed nerfs.

I do think that they probably went a bit too far with the nerfs, but like... It's not like they nerfed anything that didn't deserve a nerf, I think? It's more like they nerfed stuff a bit too hard.

I think he'll take a buff in the next patch, but well... Who knows when that is coming... >.>

Explain why you think Dio needs a 14 second cool down on his blink or why his AP recovery would have needed nerfing or why his damage (or any AP characters) wouldn't be over powered. Ap characters inherently are weaker than MP characters due to their inability to generate extra ap F2p while also being locked out of an ability once it goes on cooldown. Combine that with the fact that AP cost on abilities actually cost more on this server than any other version of the game that has ever released and it gets more annoying.

The Onrush nerf was dumb, admittedly it was one of the strongest abilities in GC but it only works in certain scenarios and you have to invest time to make it OP aka hero potions(which are gone) and guild potions so it really didn't need to be nerfed seeing as both potions were needed to go infinite. Hell they even fixed what made him op in pvp by removing animation cancels from the game, oh well i made the mistake everyone else did and whaled/cap leveled purple elesis now i have to wait for them to fix something
Honkpill Jan 2, 2022 @ 6:15am 
They just nerfed dio's numbers to the point where the character is just garbage

if they only focused on buffing only damage or only ap recover so that dio would have a nice play style, but no, they nerfed both making him completely garbage and awfull to play with


he would be an amazing glass cannon if they buffed damage and keep that low ap regen

he would be an amazing character overall and in playstyle if they keep the damage but buff the ap regen

also on rush should be buffed both in mp cost and dmg, it's his main skill, it makes no sense to have it if you can't use it ...
AliceShiki Jan 2, 2022 @ 10:55am 
Originally posted by genoxflame:
Explain why you think Dio needs a 14 second cool down on his blink
As I said above, I think they nerfed stuff a bit too hard. A cooldown is good, a 14s cooldown was probably a bit too much.
Originally posted by genoxflame:
why his AP recovery would have needed nerfing
From what I heard from people that love GC's PVP (I never play PVP, mind you, so I'm just rephrasing what I heard. Take it for what it is), AP characters were a huge problem back in the day because of their massive AP recovery. Making it almost impossible to deal any reasonable amount of damage to them because they almost always had the "Counter" available by holding Z.

I dunno if there was also a balance problem on the PVE related to the AP Recovery, but it seems like there was a real problem there in the PVP... Maybe making the recovery speed different in PVP and PVE could also work... I dunno. But I do think that there was an issue there.
Originally posted by genoxflame:
why his damage (or any AP characters) wouldn't be over powered.
All characters took damage nerfs on their GCC re-releases AFAIK, why would Dio be any different? That's kind of a given at this point.


As for the rest of your points... I'll just reiterate what I said in my original post. I don't think they nerfed anything that didn't deserve a nerf... But they probably went too far on the nerf.
wyatt198711 Jan 2, 2022 @ 11:27am 
personally idk why they did not do this but they should of just made it where the passive that dio had have no effect at all in pvp and just make it only work in pve. But that might be too hard/difficult for KOG to do.
genoxflame Jan 2, 2022 @ 11:55am 
how have neither of you noticed that mp recovery is halved in pvp, 5/3 seconds was fine for blink it has zero I frames, and takes up the slot of a technique or special, and im not complaining that Dios damage isnt what it used to be; the complaint is his damage isnt higher than the average mp character to compensate for being gated by the restrictions of being AP.

I'm all for keeping the game "hard" and giving the player a goal/ reasons to progress but the way theyve handled Dio is so bad its laughable, his 4th bar is still ruined/bugged where the last hit which does all the damage doesnt go off. (yet they can take away/ruin the rest of his kit.)
Trevail Jan 2, 2022 @ 5:25pm 
I hear you 100%. The random nerfs to characters are so unnecessary. Like why would you remove Elesis roll, now there's no reason to play her at all. KOG could have left characters untouched and everyone would be happy, but they're out here reinventing the wheel and wondering why the playerbase is dwindling, when they drip feed us 10 year old content. i played Dio for a day or two and got to use his 4th bar skill a fair bit, and its still bugged! Half the time the damage doesn't register. like yeah thanks for nerfing random aspects of the character without fixing KNOWN bugs.
Sobolewski Jan 2, 2022 @ 7:01pm 
Originally posted by genoxflame:
how have neither of you noticed that mp recovery is halved in pvp, 5/3 seconds was fine for blink it has zero I frames, and takes up the slot of a technique or special, and im not complaining that Dios damage isnt what it used to be; the complaint is his damage isnt higher than the average mp character to compensate for being gated by the restrictions of being AP.

I'm all for keeping the game "hard" and giving the player a goal/ reasons to progress but the way theyve handled Dio is so bad its laughable, his 4th bar is still ruined/bugged where the last hit which does all the damage doesnt go off. (yet they can take away/ruin the rest of his kit.)
APs get 5 skill slots and good resource recovery to spam to their hearts content, a LOT of versatility due to having skills for nearly every situation, and overall due to being newer have far more forgiving gameplay. They shouldn't ALSO deal more damage.

I think they should have either kept the damage high (though not as high as it was back in the old GC) and toned down their ability to spam skills, or made the damage lower than average to compensate for the fact you can spend almost your entire screen time spamming the ♥♥♥♥ out of cheap i-frame skills after you get to the third job or so.

Overall I think Dio being released weak is a positive though, it shows KOG is willing to nerf and put newer characters in line with their older counterparts now that you can pick whoever with your character slots and modern characters aren't locked behind countless hours of grinding recruitment missions or coughing up money.

Onrush should have never existed, it was a cheap way out of actually learning to dodge boss attacks and manage your resources, why do all that when you can expend a couple potions to oneshot the majority of bosses with NO risk? It's at its rightful place right now : a trash skill for trash players.
Last edited by Sobolewski; Jan 2, 2022 @ 7:02pm
AliceShiki Jan 2, 2022 @ 8:20pm 
2
Originally posted by Trevail:
I hear you 100%. The random nerfs to characters are so unnecessary. Like why would you remove Elesis roll, now there's no reason to play her at all. KOG could have left characters untouched and everyone would be happy, but they're out here reinventing the wheel and wondering why the playerbase is dwindling, when they drip feed us 10 year old content. i played Dio for a day or two and got to use his 4th bar skill a fair bit, and its still bugged! Half the time the damage doesn't register. like yeah thanks for nerfing random aspects of the character without fixing KNOWN bugs.
You do realize that the game died on Season 5, right? Re-releasing the game on the same state that it was back in Season 5 was not going to be a recipe for success... Something needed to change.

One of the problems of old GC was that the game was too easy. Most characters dealt stupidly high amounts of damage, and even the ones that didn't one-shot everything, still had very ridiculous damage outputs.

They nerfed everyone and buffed the monsters, so the midgame now feels like an actual game instead of a mindless grind where you plow through everything on your path... This was an important and much needed change.

I can understand people complaining that Dio nerfs were overboard, but nerfing in itself was 100% necessary... They might have just exaggerated on how much they nerfed him.

... And as for "I have no reason to play Elesis" argument... You don't have any reason to play any character. This is a game. Play with the character you have the most fun with... If you don't have fun with Elesis, then pick someone else. If you don't have fun with any character, then play something else.

The "I don't have any reason for using X" makes more sense when looking at the specific skills of a given character, like... If Skill A is strictly worse than Skill B, then you have no reason to use Skill A... But when looking at different characters with different playstyles and stuff, then that argument falls flat.

If you really need a reason to play a given character though, then you can be happy with the fact that Elesis is great at Berkas. Be content with that, I guess?
Originally posted by genoxflame:
Originally posted by AliceShiki:
I mean... Nerfs to Dio were necessary. Ap Recovery and Damage were probably the main one that needed nerfs.

I do think that they probably went a bit too far with the nerfs, but like... It's not like they nerfed anything that didn't deserve a nerf, I think? It's more like they nerfed stuff a bit too hard.

I think he'll take a buff in the next patch, but well... Who knows when that is coming... >.>

Explain why you think Dio needs a 14 second cool down on his blink or why his AP recovery would have needed nerfing or why his damage (or any AP characters) wouldn't be over powered. Ap characters inherently are weaker than MP characters due to their inability to generate extra ap F2p while also being locked out of an ability once it goes on cooldown. Combine that with the fact that AP cost on abilities actually cost more on this server than any other version of the game that has ever released and it gets more annoying.

The Onrush nerf was dumb, admittedly it was one of the strongest abilities in GC but it only works in certain scenarios and you have to invest time to make it OP aka hero potions(which are gone) and guild potions so it really didn't need to be nerfed seeing as both potions were needed to go infinite. Hell they even fixed what made him op in pvp by removing animation cancels from the game, oh well i made the mistake everyone else did and whaled/cap leveled purple elesis now i have to wait for them to fix something
im gussing you didnt know that they buffed his ap recovery also his ap recovery increases with each job advancement
76561199209623456 Jan 3, 2022 @ 7:45am 
Originally posted by AliceShiki:
You do realize that the game died on Season 5, right? Re-releasing the game on the same state that it was back in Season 5 was not going to be a recipe for success... Something needed to change.

One of the reasons why GC season V failed is that they try to change the business model, make it like Elsword. Try to divide shared items into separate items for each character. For longtime players, it's not a problem, but for new players, this is a huge problem when even easy dungeon is too difficult for them. Old players get bored with the new system, new players don't have enough power to grind, leading to boredom and closure of the game. it's their fault for being greedy, not the players. And another big reason is that only Koreans could discuss with KOG at that time, foreigners like you could barely make decisions.

Originally posted by AliceShiki:
One of the problems of old GC was that the game was too easy. Most characters dealt stupidly high amounts of damage, and even the ones that didn't one-shot everything, still had very ridiculous damage outputs.

This is quite the opposite. For Korean games, making the game more difficult is because they need time to develop. Once there is new content, it is imperative that the old content become easier for newcomers to play. One of the reasons could be that they made the game harder and named it Classic is because they need time to develop (or cash grab). If you play any Korean titles like Gran Saga, Blade & Soul, Closers (IIRC, NADDIC Games is formed by former KOG employees?), etc. Those are all common formulas that you can all see.

Secondly, the idea that games are easy so they don't play them is wrong.
A study has concluded that the reason why most players today prefer easy-to-play games is major of them have aged, they don't have as much free time as when they were young, some even work from morning to night, to the point that they don't have time to see their family, how can they have wasted time pouring into some game? This is why mobile games or gacha games occupy all the tastes of today's players, it is suitable for easy play, easy to arrange time but also has a very good business model. Especially since GC is an old game, the only people who know it are aged people (GCDC is another story because is a mobile game that fits well with our modern lifestyle). Also, we play games to satisfy our own desires, there are things we can't do in real life but we can do in games. In a company where only a few people are leaders, the rest are all employees, the desire of these employees is to become strong in life at least once. So it's not difficult to understand why they want to experience the feeling of being strong in the game, because games are the most accessible world in which you can be yourself at least once in life. The fact that they find a game difficult only makes people turn away from it. However, it is not necessarily that there are no difficult titles for such people.
Try hard games that require overcoming difficulties like Dark Soul has a certain fan base but not casual players. Meanwhile, casual players make up the majority of the potential customers a company can have (same reason above). This is why Dark Soul players always laugh at the average players who only know how to play easy games when in reality, the revenue or branch names are not as popular as other games. As for the reason why even though they have a smaller number of customers, they still target it because they target the niche market segment, as long as they do well, they will always have a loyal customer base. Instead of having to rush into the big market, those customers can change their preferences at any time because it is too general.
For a whole bunch of reasons above, the fact that the game needs to be difficult is just an excuse,

Thirdly, even though I didn't work at KoG in the past, but I understand why they had to make the game harder in season 5. Outside of changing the business model, they need to change the gameplay. The game needs to be constantly updated to refresh the gameplay, you can't keep playing the same type of gameplay forever. Even eating every day, sometimes you still feel bored, let alone playing games. And one of those things is that they nerf the game down, by reducing buffs/debuffs, and you know what, that's also one of the reasons why season V fails as you wrote, and they keep it as it is, the current status for GCC is even worse than before. Of course, when they came back, they also thought about that reason carefully, so they named it Classic. I mean no matter what you do, there will always be pros and cons, depending on your condition, so if they have already launched the javelin, they must follow it.

Lastly, as everyone wrote before, PVE was never taken seriously in the original grand chase. The grand chase world championship is taken seriously because it has the potential to be an e-sport, which is going viral around the world if you play LOL and LOL is a Korean game. People level up fast to give them time to play PVP and not PVE so it doesn't affect anything. The fact that GCC is now focusing on PvE only shows that people play it for nostalgia, not because they want to play the way they used to. DNF Duel is another Korean game, another branch of Dungeon Fighter, launched not long ago, also targeting this e-sport segment. If you play pirated servers, most of them are just there for PVP. PVP or E-sport, in general, does not require you to log in every day and follow all event rules like a slave, you simply do play 1 or 2 games if you want, and then leave. It's easy to manage the time, especially when you are busy every day, it also does not require you to have high gears or grind like a mdfacker. Another reason why games like MOBA or PUBG are popular nowadays outside of gacha games.

Originally posted by AliceShiki:
I can understand people complaining that Dio nerfs were overboard, but nerfing in itself was 100% necessary... They might have just exaggerated on how much they nerfed him.

The nerf is not as important as the player realizing how weak AP is right now. Even from the beginning, they purposely made AP strong to attract more players to the game. Dio is not only the first AP, he is also the strongest AP character in the game, even after being nerfed many times, he is still strong in PVE and PVP, even Koreans have the same comment. If such a strong AP character was nerfed to the point of trashing, how bad would another character be? From here on, it will only be AP re-release characters. If AP is still this weak, there is no reason for players to return.
Last edited by Charles Knight; Jan 3, 2022 @ 9:09am
Originally posted by bluedragoncool:
im gussing you didnt know that they buffed his ap recovery also his ap recovery increases with each job advancement

I would like to refute this sentence, the files related to AP recovery are not on the client-side, so unless you give solid evidence (like comparison before/after) it should not be written to avoid other players gossiping false rumors.

As far as I know, there was a misunderstanding about AP recovery increasing with job advancement due to the fact that KoG did the AP recovery patch right after receiving so many complaints about Dio's AP recovery rate in the early days of the re-release.
AliceShiki Jan 3, 2022 @ 9:28am 
Originally posted by Charles Knight:
This is quite the opposite. For Korean games, making the game more difficult is because they need time to develop. Once there is new content, it is imperative that the old content become easier for newcomers to play. One of the reasons could be that they made the game harder and named it Classic is because they need time to develop (or cash grab). If you play any Korean titles like Gran Saga, Blade & Soul, Closers (IIRC, NADDIC Games is formed by former KOG employees?), etc. Those are all common formulas that you can all see.

Secondly, the idea that games are easy so they don't play them is wrong.
A study has concluded that the reason why most players today prefer easy-to-play games is major of them have aged, they don't have as much free time as when they were young, some even work from morning to night, to the point that they don't have time to see their family, how can they have wasted time pouring into some game? This is why mobile games or gacha games occupy all the tastes of today's players, it is suitable for easy play, easy to arrange time but also has a very good business model. Especially since GC is an old game, the only people who know it are aged people (GCDC is another story because is a mobile game that fits well with our modern lifestyle). Also, we play games to satisfy our own desires, there are things we can't do in real life but we can do in games. In a company where only a few people are leaders, the rest are all employees, the desire of these employees is to become strong in life at least once. So it's not difficult to understand why they want to experience the feeling of being strong in the game, because games are the most accessible world in which you can be yourself at least once in life. The fact that they find a game difficult only makes people turn away from it. However, it is not necessarily that there are no difficult titles for such people.
Try hard games that require overcoming difficulties like Dark Soul has a certain fan base but not casual players. Meanwhile, casual players make up the majority of the potential customers a company can have (same reason above). This is why Dark Soul players always laugh at the average players who only know how to play easy games when in reality, the revenue or branch names are not as popular as other games. As for the reason why even though they have a smaller number of customers, they still target it because they target the niche market segment, as long as they do well, they will always have a loyal customer base. Instead of having to rush into the big market, those customers can change their preferences at any time because it is too general.
For a whole bunch of reasons above, the fact that the game needs to be difficult is just an excuse,

Thirdly, even though I didn't work at KoG in the past, but I understand why they had to make the game harder in season 5. Outside of changing the business model, they need to change the gameplay. The game needs to be constantly updated to refresh the gameplay, you can't keep playing the same type of gameplay forever. Even eating every day, sometimes you still feel bored, let alone playing games. And one of those things is that they nerf the game down, by reducing buffs/debuffs, and you know what, that's also one of the reasons why season V fails as you wrote, and they keep it as it is, the current status for GCC is even worse than before. Of course, when they came back, they also thought about that reason carefully, so they named it Classic. I mean no matter what you do, there will always be pros and cons, depending on your condition, so if they have already launched the javelin, they must follow it.

Lastly, as everyone wrote before, PVE was never taken seriously in the original grand chase. The grand chase world championship is taken seriously because it has the potential to be an e-sport, which is going viral around the world if you play LOL and LOL is a Korean game. People level up fast to give them time to play PVP and not PVE so it doesn't affect anything. The fact that GCC is now focusing on PvE only shows that people play it for nostalgia, not because they want to play the way they used to. DNF Duel is another Korean game, another branch of Dungeon Fighter, launched not long ago, also targeting this e-sport segment. If you play pirated servers, most of them are just there for PVP. PVP or E-sport, in general, does not require you to log in every day and follow all event rules like a slave, you simply do play 1 or 2 games if you want, and then leave. It's easy to manage the time, especially when you are busy every day, it also does not require you to have high gears or grind like a mdfacker. Another reason why games like MOBA or PUBG are popular nowadays outside of gacha games.
Yes, I'm aware that it's important to make games somewhat easy in order to attract the more casual playerbase. That's normal. That's why Dark Souls is extremely easy (Yes, it is super easy. It's just a pattern-based game instead of a game that allows you to plow through everything without knowing the boss patterns. The execution difficulty in Dark Souls is basically inexistent. It's only hard for as long as you don't know the patterns... Which can be learned in 20s of fight usually.) too. Because the casual players are the biggest amount of players in every game ever made. Hardcore players are always the minority.

That said, excessively easy content is bad. When the players get bored by the content because there is nothing entertaining about it, then you are losing players. You need to make the content easy enough to be overcome by basically everyone, but hard enough to still offer a challenge. This is what will make your players continue playing.

GC back when it closed had this problem... Everything just kinda melted by pressing a button... It just wasn't fun.
Even now the problem is still there in the first two-three regions tbh. The game starts getting a bit fun in Gaicoz, and fun for real around Kamiki... Before that point it's just... Well, braindead easy? That's bad. It's hard to get new players if they're bored by the first 40 levels of gameplay. They probably won't reach lv 40 to start having fun.
... But well, it was much much much worse back in Season 5 and stuff, so it's a good thing that they took the right steps to fixing it.

You can talk as much as you want about how players can like the "feeling of being strong" or whatever... But fact is, if a game is boring, then people will stop playing it. And braindead easy games are boring, so people won't keep on playing... You do need difficulty, it's absolutely necessary to have some difficulty on the game.

As for the focus being on PVE instead of in PVP... That's just because the casual players don't care about PVP in GC. They play for the PVE, so the focus of the game is on PVE... It's just a simple sensible business decision.

Like, seriously, the PVP in GC has its charm, but it's also a total mess. It's clunky and weird and just doesn't appeal to most players... It would be crazy to try appealing to that when the PVE system is just a lot more solid and a lot more entertaining to the majority of the playerbase.
Originally posted by Anti-Michele:
I think it's funny how AliceShiki told us to care about newbies before and right now, she advises us to play until the end game content to see the usefulness of the character while her level hasn't reached there yet.
I said that you should play the game because it's fun, and that you should play with the character you have the most fun with.

If you need a reason to play Elesis, then Berkas can be that reason... But that's not the core of my argument by any means.
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Date Posted: Dec 31, 2021 @ 2:33am
Posts: 38