Things KOG must fix or GC will die again

[Yun]

Even before the end of the game, the current state it was made many players abandon it because it was not giving the players what they most loved in the game.
Although many say GC was a P2W game, I’m proud to say that I never spent a single coin in it and was an extremely successful player nevertheless.
The game is about ability, not status. If you’re better than your opponent, his stats are almost meaningless.
The only P2W features I can point (which were clearly overpowered) were the cash pets and the Serdin Ring. These two things were usually game breaking for most of the players.
I was quite hyped when I heard that the “Classic” GC was coming back, but by “Classic” they just meant it was an old game, not that they would really use the way the game used to be in its beginning. But the game had many other bigger flaws that need adjusting or it will die again.
I’ll point some flaws that should be fixed based on the last Brazilian version of the game (distributed by Level Up! Games).
Let’s join and make GC good again.

-----General Fixes:
1 – The Grab --> I would say the grab was always the strongest move in the game. Although it takes precision and timing, it’s able to even stop skills. However, in the latest version, the grab was nerfed to the point that it would take 20 grabs to kill someone. Just MAKE GRAB STRONG AGAIN.
2 – Pets --> Pets started as a side help during battles, but they ended up being the main weapon of many players, specially cashers, with pets that could heal a lot of HP, paralyze you during an absurd amount of time, or even kill you. That’s broken and takes away all the fun of the PVP. I can think of 3 possible ways to solve that problem.
a) Make it possible for the room creator to enable/disable pet use on PVP rooms;
b) Weaken (a lot) the effect of pets during PVP;
c) Ban pets from PVP.
3 – Otto Shot --> Otto is the name we used to the move many characters could do, which consists in going down from a platform and hitting a target almost immediately. That would cause the character to give the hit and instantly get back to the platform he jumped from, in normal instance. That said, those characters could just press Down repeatedly to give 5~10 jump attack hits per second. Clearly OP and not supposed to exist. Must be fixed.
4 – HP and MP recovery effects on equipment --> As I said, the fun thing about GC is that stats do not matter. Even if the opponent is a lot stronger than you, you can win if you’re better… except if the opponent has a full HP / MP recovery set. A full HP rec. set could be enough to make it almost impossible to kill a too stronger player, simply because that player would recover health faster than you could deplete it. The full MP recovery also brings the same problematic as the Serdin Ring. Those stats are interesting but IMHO I believe the PVP would be better without them or at least with their effects cut in half.
Just a tip: if those stats did work on PVE but not PVP, it would encourage players to have 2 goo sets of armor… *wink wink*

5 – The way the PvP took --> With the arrival of the AP characters, the focus of the PvP stopped being a cautious fight, in which would lose the one who did something wrong first (like missing a skill), to become a “just press everything” fight with homming attacks, large immunity windows and large and strong area skills that can be safely used. That’s what made GC less attractive. I hope that the focus of the game comes back to being a nice fighting experience, not a flashing show of whatever hits.

----Specific fixes by character (since I don’t know their names in every language, I’ll use the Brazilian names and put a description):
1 – Eleusis (redhead girl) --> She’s alright, can’t point anything that must be fixed on her except for the otto shot.
2 – Lire (blonde elf)
a) FIX THE AIM GUAN --> Aim Guan is a command that locks Lire’s aim (making her look like she broke her back) and allows her to shot straight lines of consecutive arrows. Obviously, an OP bug, must be fixed.
b) 1st class Skill Tree’s amplifier --> The Amplifier is the name of the 1st class’s ability of throwing down 2 magic nerfing balls when pressing Down + Z while airborne. Those things used to stagger the opponent giving an opening for a grab, but later on the stagger was removed, discouraging Lire 1st class to close combat. Make it stagger again.
c) Let her basic attacks from 2ND class stagger --> After the rework on Lire’s 2nd class, her basic attack hits do not stagger any more, but just makes the opponent flinch for like 0,1 sec. Even as an Arme user who hates this class, I can say that quite broke it, so I believe it would be better if she could stagger like she always could.
3 – Arme (purple mage)
a) Nerf the Fire Barrier from the 1st class Skill Tree --> The last time I saw it, the fire protection (literal translation from the BR skill name) was OP for quite a good time, since it could block a lot of damage and reflect another big amount of it. I believe this skill would be better just as a stronger version of the basic magic shield --> make it block 2 hits and cause lingering damage to nearby opponents.
b) 2nd class dash+hit --> It had a too long invincibility time. The vulnerability window should be bigger;
c) 4th class 1st skill --> The Fire Barrier (1st offensive Skill) was OP for some time, but I believe it was fixed latter on… just be sure it doesn’t almost kill opponents easily
d) 4th class 3rd skill --> Make the Wind Blast (3rd defensive skill) aimable, just like the 1st class’s Lightning;
e) 4th class critical --> Make her critical move (Z --> -->) strong again. It used to give a lot of consecutive hits on airborne opponents and was the best weapon against many jumpy enemies like Lass 3rd class.
f) 4th class multiple grabs --> Everyone knows that a reasonably trained 4th class can grab opponents in sequence depending on the floor. Although I believe it was really designed to happen, since prior to the 2nd class rework, Arme was the only character that the grab for all classes had the exact same animation, and only the 4th class’s grab was different. Also, being able to grab repeatedly would give bigger meaning to the “Battlemage” title, since it was clearly a way to make the character dangerous in close combat too. So, all I expect is that KOG manifests clearly if the multiple grabs are a bug (that should be fixed) or were designed on purpose and intended to be used.

4 – Lass (kidnapped ninja)
a) 2nd class range --> After the reword, the range of this class’s attacks (specially the dash attack) got a little out of hand, being much bigger than they look like. That should be fixed, or to make the range smaller or to make the range more visually accurate.
b) 3rd class --> That class was broken since always. Something that can jump attack you 20 times without touching the ground, killing you in 2 seconds, is surely not supposed to exist, specially when hit aerial dashes (that can be performed in 8 different directions) give him a big invulnerability window.
I’d say that the best way to make him reasonable is to limit the amount of airborne dashes / hits he can use in a single jump to 3, and be able to airborne dash again only after 0,5 sec on the ground. It would be enough to go up, hit, forward, hit, down, hit, combo on the ground, throw up, invisibility, grab.

5 – Ryan (elf transformer)
a) 1st class dash+hit --> the dash+hit was giving too much damage while making him travel a long distance with a big invulnerability window. Something there must be decreased, preferably the invulnerability time.
b) 1st class Resurrection --> After the skill tree gave Ryan a passive skill that could allow him to revive after defeated and also let him be affected by his own resurrection skill (3rd skill) and even made it last a lot longer and revive with a big amount of health, the game totally broke. The possible fixes would be making it don’t affect Ryan or making the amount of health of the resurrected be a lot smaller (like 10% only).
c) 2nd class Beyblade --> There was a bug which allowed Ryan 2nd class to jump dash+hit and bug during the fall, making him keep moving forward and spin-hitting until stopped. Must be fixed.

6 – Ronan (the magic guard) --> can’t remember anything too OP about him…

7 – Jin (Viktor’s pupil) --> Jinn’s problem, which applies too basically all his classes, is that his roll evade is overpowered. It’s very long, instant and has no vulnerability windows from beginning to end. Just add some points of vulnerability, like happens with Arme’s blink.

8 – Sieghart (Elesis’s grand-grand…-father)
a) 1st Class Backflip --> increase the vulnerability window, or make him take longer to move after landing.
b) 4th class JF --> Make consecutive JFs be possible only if the enemy got hit by the first JF. Also increase the immobility time after a missed JF. It would make using the JF something strategic, not just an addiction.

9 – Amy (the annoying idol) --> Just make her vulnerable during the 4th class Jump Down+Z.

10 – Dio (the OP demon)
a) JUST NERF --> Many of Dio’s skills are too strong, which is a problem for a character that’s fully editable and has 1000 ways of killing you;
b) Fix the 4th class combo --> The 4th class combo+Up allows Dio to teleport under the opponent, rising with a wing spinning attack that hits quite a lot, throws the opponent up and allows Dio to simply get on his feet and keep the combo forever... AND ALL THAT WHILE HE IS ALMOST ALWAYS INVULNERABLE.
Come on… really? What were you thinking? It’s totally broken!!! Just make him vulnerable all the time, just like every other character is while using a combo.

11 – Rey / Ley (Arme, but much more detestable)
a) The Flawless teleport --> Rey’s teleport not only is long, instant and can be performed in 6 different ways, but it’s also basically flawless. Putting a bigger vulnerability window in the end of the teleport and making it spend some AP (like you made with Arme’s fireball) would be enough to solve that problem, specially the problem of her 4th class dash combo;

12 – Mari (Sieghart’s waifu) --> Her 4th class dash+Z is a little too strong.

13 – Zero (big sword boy) --> Beyond the fact that Zero is a moving fortress, with absurd damage output, his weak side was always having to choose between speed or damage. until the 4th class. The 4th class remove all Zero’s weaknesses, making him fast and furious. But the worst part is that this class gives him the ability to be completely invulnerable for a big amount of time. I’d say he needs at least a serious reduction in his invulnerability. A reduction in his speed with the sword would also be welcome.

14 – Lupus / Rufus (the gunslinger) --> He’s obnoxious, but OK.

15 – Holy / Lime (the hammer of god) --> Can’t remember anything bad about her, except when her jump+Z could stay for a long time on the screen and could stagger. Hope you make it not stagger anymore or last for a shorter period.

16 – Rin / Lin (the fan goddess)
a) Fan combo --> the fan combo is nonstop and gives a lot of damage. Reducing the damage would be good enough.
b) 4th Class Comet Attack --> the 4th class had an airborne attack that Lin would curl and become a comet, dashing forward up/down while immune. Shorten the immunity time in the end of the move so people can defend themselves.
c) I remember some of her skills were too strong, put I can’t remember exactly which ones…

17 – Asin (the blue Jin) --> nerf his skills, they give too much damage.

18 – Edel Frost (Icy Asuna) --> make it only possible to use her dash dodge is the did hit something with the dash attack.

19 – Veigas (the cube boy) --> the game didn’t last long after Veigas, so I couldn’t find any good player who would make him look like a real problem.

20 – Uno (Sieghart + Lass) --> same problem as Veigas.

-----------------------------
Well, that's all I think (and remember) that should be done to make the game great again.
KOG, this time, give it the love it's worth.

[tomino]

u are 100% correct :)

[Josedx9]

I will simply say that it amazes me tremendously how the Latino community knows absolutely nothing about the meanings of Exploits and Bugs in video games.
Yes, many of those you mention in this post are mostly Exploits, the clearest is the one called otto.

And yes, in addition to the exploits (which became a standard in the pvp of this game), there is an enormous amount of balance and fixes that have to be done.

Also I want to mention other details about Dark Rin, she has a pvp skill scheme broken from head to toe:
1) she can meteor fall on you off screen
2) The impact of that blow stuns you and lifts you into the air for half a second, allowing Rin to do a Grab, since she can continue to move freely after landing.
3) she has the ability to apply a curse to you
4) when you weaken her she gets a stats buff (which is more important is speed buff)
5) in some way she can absorb health, therefore there is a possibility of avoiding dying by escaping from the fatal state

And about what you say about Zero, what? I have not seen many main Zeros in PVP, but I play a lot with it and it is far from what you claim.
He can't be a "walking fortress". You know why? Because he is totally vulnerable to the Grab, even though he is transformed into a grandark and neither his attacks are extremely powerful, I would even dare to say that he is one of the most balanced characters in PVP that have been made in the game.

Regarding the pet problems, it was technically already "fixed" by adding a filter system in pvp so that you can be able to ban what you don't like, such as the use of pets for example.

Anyway, the PVP of this game is broken and not only because of how it is programmed, but because its community also adapted all the disaster of this game mode as a standard, something similar to what happened with Gunz

[Yun]

Originally posted by tomino:

u are 100% correct :)

Thank you!

[Yun]

Originally posted by Josedx9:

I must disagree with you about the concept of exploit. All that wasn't supposed to happen is a bug. An exploit is something that's supposed to happen, but is used in a way that is abusive. Although it's something conceptual that doesn't change much. Both bugs and exploits must be dealt with.

About Dark Rin, I do remember her being very powerful, but most things you said, although really problematic during PvP, I don't see as real treats, specially about the meteor, since many other skills alow you to do the same thing. That's why I think that declreasing the immunity in the end of the meteor would be enough to defend yourself.
The curse only kills people who can't press Z just the necessary amount of time.
The life absorbing effect, at least in Brazil, was not so strong to be considered too OP.
But anyway, I agree that as a whole character, Dark Rin is very strong.

About Zero. I've seem many main Zero. Believe me, it's absurd.... He was vulnerable to grabs until de 3rd class, but with the 4th even getting close is dangerous, and he has skills to become imortal. Not only that, but as i said in the beggining, the grab was totally weak by the end of the game, so even if he's vulnerable to grab, them his only vulnerability is to something that was totally nerfed.

Anyway, I believe our goals are the same. An enjoyable and balanced PvP.

[sneaz]

https://streamable.com/wpifbf jesus christ look at this video. pls also include that we need to nerf the zzzzz SO OP I CANT WIN WITH THIS

[sneaz]

https://streamable.com/yk1nvl i also agree with ur statement about the grabs. we really need to buff it. the grabs in this video wont even be enough to kill a full health

[Tiago Yama]

Elesis - ottoshot is the only thing she can do in pvp. Otto and Grab, specially second job, she does not have combo nor skills that impact soo much and her damage was lower than some characters.

Lire - ain guan was a thing about rocket + z, yep, that was a bug and that as disgusting.

Arme - Funny that you didn't mention third job, the most powerfull class of arme.

Lass - Second job even before the rework was a pain in the ass, easy classe and huge damage ALSO he has a hability to do 2 kind of infinite combos, critical and air combo. Third job was fair enough, he need rocket, dashs and etc, only people that CAN DO these things of movimentations can "abuse", D.A dont run, cant jump vertically and dont have a legit combo, and his skills... Welp, his skills exist (but the first one was good)

Ryan - >^ + Hit >> was from before he gain the hability to run, fair enougth to him have this kind of hability, specialy druid. Second job infinite combo really was unfair..

Amy - welp, the only thing i can say is "flying with amy", annoying because was "difficult" to make she does things, but when you was capable to do, you simply destroy everyone.

Jin - Jin is a true balanced character, and i'm not kidding. You just cant perform skill damage with him, nor combos, somewhat like elesis, you can only do 3 hit combo and grab. Hist first class, was about combo/dodge all ong pvp, i'm sure to say you that jin users, at least Fighter users dont use any king of skills, the second job he can only do 3 things in pvp : the >>>^z, grab and use the special fury commands to make him deal more damage and conect with combos/grab.
The true dodge problem was Asura, since the job released the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ "roll" was bugged, man, you kinda "drag" other characters with you, but again, Asura dont have ANY good combo, he usually does ottoshot, grab.. Some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ADVANCED PLAYER can do infinite combos
Now, Rama yes, Rama was the true badass on pvp, easy to understand, easy to do commands, good dodges and rolls, infinite combos and freaking high speed. But look, jin was all about doing low damage XD.

Sieghart - first job : same thing, he can only do dodge and grab, thats all.
P.K was about JF, the character dont even have combo, and yes, that was OP, but again, low output damage.


Being honest with you, I noticed that you complain about the players' abilities with the characters and that's "crying", everything you mentioned needed some learning with the character, job, and knowledge about: Rocket, mush, tchogon, dashs, ottoshot... To make ottoshot, you need time to press Z and down, to rocket, you need keyboard time.... All this separated the good player from the bad player. Obviously there were classes that, when you learned this kind of thing, would be extremely strong D.A and P.K is a clear example.


Now about AP/Hybrid :

Lupus have a HUGHE amount of damage and low cooldowns, he work better without delay skills.

Holy was câncer, she can : invulnerability, can have inifnite MP, can have HYPER ARMOR, high skill damage output. All this in pvp.

Dio : The problem with him was : Commander combo and Creeper debuffs.

Zer : hability to be a Jin, but slower, only thing annoying about him was the combo.

To fisnish, all the things that i listed is a mix from before(MP) and after class changes/balances and yes, AFTER the rebalance, the things got worse, because : all characters now have infinite combo, all characters can do "air combo" (hitting no one). The majority os things i cited was about PVP WITHOUT BONUS ATTRIBUTES, SKILL THREE NOR AP in pvp, because this ♥♥♥♥ literally breaks the balance.

[Josedx9]

Originally posted by jodi:

https://streamable.com/yk1nvl i also agree with ur statement about the grabs. we really need to buff it. the grabs in this video wont even be enough to kill a full health

In fact here it shows exactly what I mean by an Exploit.
I'ts horrible, you literally drained all of their health by simply Grab them without the player being able to do something about it, you completely punished them just because they decided to follow you.
And if you can see your opponent's health bar, for each Grab you take away approximately 25% of their health, why the hell is that low damage?

[Dito ka lang]

sorry to bother, lets join our community here for playing together soon
https://discord.gg/w9VhKhhW6x
we hv managed a lot of channels for further party and partner searching, please take a look :D

[sneaz]

Originally posted by Josedx9:

Originally posted by jodi:

https://streamable.com/yk1nvl i also agree with ur statement about the grabs. we really need to buff it. the grabs in this video wont even be enough to kill a full health

In fact here it shows exactly what I mean by an Exploit.
I'ts horrible, you literally drained all of their health by simply Grab them without the player being able to do something about it, you completely punished them just because they decided to follow you.
And if you can see your opponent's health bar, for each Grab you take away approximately 25% of their health, why the hell is that low damage?

"Without the player being able to do something about it" lol the player had enough mp and couldve simply countered but he chose not to. Most grabs u can do is 1-2. 2 if u grabbed someone and they fell of a platform and u were able to catch them with the second grab. more than 2 isnt common.

if u look closely at their hp, The person already lost half of their health before the grabs happened. 4 grabs wont even be enough to kill a full health person. Simply speaking, u cant lose all 5k of your hp and die with consecutive grabs unless ur playing with a half brain and u just let them grab u until u die.

[Yun]

Originally posted by Tiago Yama:

Man, when you mentioned about the needed ability to do things.... I'm not crying, because I CAN DO ALL OF THEM (except for aim guan). It doesn't take much to do any of these bugs.
And you're justifying one failure with another... I'm expecting all characters to be balanced, not to make all of them have some overpowered ability.
But it's not because I can use them that I think they're fair. Exploits/bug shouldn't exist and should be fixed.
About Arme's 3rd job, I'm a Arme user, but I myself don't like using it... Her damage is indeed grotesque, but it's a character that's hard to control, just like Lass 3rd. SO I think her damage is reasonable because of her difficulty to move, but maybe it would be wise to nerf her 2nd skill a little.
About Jin, I agree that the problem shows with the 3rd and is only absurd with the 4th class.
Saying Sieghart 1st can only grab and dodge is quite the understatement... I think you never played with an at least "normal" Sieg 1st user.

Lupus skiils are strong indeed, but that's all he can do. His combo does not exist, his speed is low, he can barely deffent himself with dash+Z...

Holy / Lime can't have infinite MP without the armor buffs, and that's one of the reasons why I put those armor buffs shold be removed / weakened. And Holy can't use her skills and keep her ground at the same time.

Notice I never mentioned the movement commands (rocket, mush, etc) because I believe they are not exploits, specially because the majority of the characters can use them and they're a simple combination of commands that just help mobility, not necessarilly turning you into a killing machine.

[Yun]

Originally posted by Josedx9:

Originally posted by jodi:

Jose, you're missing the point... I believe you played the North American GC, not the Brazilian, which was the last one to die if I'm not wrong. My comments are considering how it was in the BR server in the end.
If the grabs where hitting as much as they were in this video, I wouldn't complain at all! But when I said it would take 20 grabs to kills someone, I was being precise...
And I should agree with sneaz.... The majority of players die to multiple grabs because they don't want to or (believe me) don't know how to take counter.
In fact, in the last months of the game, I would infinity grab opponents for more than 1 min because the players didn't know how to take the counter. All thanks for the Hybridzation

[Josedx9]

Originally posted by sneaz:

"Without the player being able to do something about it" lol the player had enough mp and couldve simply countered but he chose not to. Most grabs u can do is 1-2. 2 if u grabbed someone and they fell of a platform and u were able to catch them with the second grab. more than 2 isnt common.

if u look closely at their hp, The person already lost half of their health before the grabs happened. 4 grabs wont even be enough to kill a full health person. Simply speaking, u cant lose all 5k of your hp and die with consecutive grabs unless ur playing with a half brain and u just let them grab u until u die.

No, the Grab and I am almost sure this was not intended to do multiple Grabs before the player even touched the ground (at least in the situation shown in the video, I can understand that if it is possible if it is still falling from a considerable height), it is normal for a player who has been caught once by this to assume that he will be able to rejoin without the need to counter
And yet, if it was previously assumed that you were going to use that exploit, it would take at least 2 grabs before having an mp load ready.

And yes, I realized before commenting on my previous post that the opponent's health was already somewhat drained, but it does not mean that the grab does not do significant damage, in fact it can make a big difference in a fight when (for example) both opponents have low health. I don't think this mechanic was designed to be able to do large amounts of damage for free.

Originally posted by Yun:

Jose, you're missing the point... I believe you played the North American GC, not the Brazilian, which was the last one to die if I'm not wrong. My comments are considering how it was in the BR server in the end.
If the grabs where hitting as much as they were in this video, I wouldn't complain at all! But when I said it would take 20 grabs to kills someone, I was being precise...
And I should agree with sneaz.... The majority of players die to multiple grabs because they don't want to or (believe me) don't know how to take counter.
In fact, in the last months of the game, I would infinity grab opponents for more than 1 min because the players didn't know how to take the counter. All thanks for the Hybridzation

About making Counter I understand, but what I mean at this point is how this mechanism can work to be exploited.
And I feel that this type of problem could be solved simply by adding Cooldowns at specific moments.
For example, after a Grab, you cannot give that opponent another Grab until 0.5 seconds have passed.
Or for example with the otto, after an air attack you cannot carry out another until 0.5 seconds have passed.
Things like that

And I did not know that about the grabs on the Brazilian server, if it really does so little damage, I doubt that that specifically happens on this server

[Tiago Yama]

I can do all of these things too, but any problem with movimentations and dashs will broke jobs... I can give an ex : Spearman, tell me, how can you do pvp without otto with elesis second job? Or suprass que slowness of Sword Master without mushi and otto? Its impossible. D.A withou dashs.. Oh yes, Striker without dashs too? wow, amy without her dashs and etcetera? The major attractive for pvp users in grand chase was it, everyone can say "that was OP, but enjoyable". I can tell you in adition what was OP and not enjoyable at all.


Lire ain-guam
Arme animations to teleport
Arme bomber cross platform Jump Z and first skill.
Ronan infinite combo (after rebalance)
Ryan infinite combo (after rebalance, NO ST)
Ryan Sentinel infinite spin before rebalance AND infinite combo after rebalance
Ryan Vixen Nature Tamer
Jin Fighter shadow dash e shadow punch
Mari La geas with her high damage output, pretty easy thing to do with her, yes ou know what i'm talking about

Others i dont have cited here because was cited before

Now, about the ST's that have ou cleary talking about AND the reformulations obviously this was a HUGE mistake, these videos before was from grand chase history (yes, that lass combo does not need to exist) and elesis grabs exists since before i started to play, and also it is caused because of "bounce" effect after grab, like Archmage grab (arme 4th job).

thats all, i guess? And, without these kind of stuff, the pvp will be like elsword pvp, trash without hability, just skill spam.

[Yun]

Originally posted by Tiago Yama:

Don't make me repeat that I don't consider mushi, rocket and other dashes as exploits.
And better than tell you, I could show you how a Spearman can fight even without the otto. Her dash+Z is great, her combo is long, her grab is easy... she's not a super class, but she's quite usable.

What's wrong with Arme's teleport? 0.o

I don't see Ronan's infinite combo as a major problem since it's very slow and gives no protection. But yeah, they implemented too many infinite combos.