HOTAS and other joysticks

[mmihokovic]

With latest update we've implemented the type of supoprt system we intended, and now we need to fine tune it and tweak according to what you're experiencing when playing.

Thank you for already giving us your feedback on joysticks. Now we'd ask that you add further comments in this thread, so we can easily identify all the possible issues that are popping out after our system has been implemented.

Thanks again!

[Valden21]

Originally posted by mmihokovic_LGM:

Right now, we're tailoring support for most frequently used devices. However, in the code background we do have direct input, so before development is completed we plan to create interface where any liable joystick could be mapped by user...

Does "most frequently used devices" include the Thrustmaster T-Flight X?

[mmihokovic]

Do you perhaps mean this one? : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1940323403

[Valden21]

Originally posted by mmihokovic_LGM:

Do you perhaps mean this one? : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1940323403

No, that's a different one. The full name of the one I've got is the Thrustmaster T-Flight Stick X. It's a budget version of the picture you posted, and it's only got one joystick.

[mmihokovic]

Aha, got it. Thanks for clarification. That one will get proper support when we add a generic control scheme support. Basically, some more complicated and frequent joysticks with players are getting specially crafted solutions, while others will be covered with one unified solution...

[Valden21]

Originally posted by mmihokovic_LGM:

Aha, got it. Thanks for clarification. That one will get proper support when we add a generic control scheme support. Basically, some more complicated and frequent joysticks with players are getting specially crafted solutions, while others will be covered with one unified solution...

I've got one final question: In every other game I've got that I play with a joystick, I use the keyboard in conjunction with the joystick. Basically, I'm using the keyboard for movement, target selection, and general ship functions, and the joystick is used to steer and to fire my weapons. Will I be able to play that way once the Thrustmaster T-Flight X has support?

[mmihokovic]

That I honestly cannot confirm yet. A few people did mention they like to play like that, and we're looking into combining two input methods. Since we never did something like that yet, I'd be careful to promise something for sure, but we'll certainly look into this and make it happen if possible

[XTRMNTR2K]

Originally posted by mmihokovic_LGM:

That I honestly cannot confirm yet. A few people did mention they like to play like that, and we're looking into combining two input methods. Since we never did something like that yet, I'd be careful to promise something for sure, but we'll certainly look into this and make it happen if possible

I understand that currently using one input method immediately swaps the control scheme to that method, which really messes with using joystick and keyboard at once. That being said, it doesn't make sense - not every joystick has nearly enough inputs to cover even the most important actions, so having to use both is all but guaranteed to be necessary for the majority of sticks. Using standard gamepads as default model for non-mouse/KB input including its limitations (number of axis and buttons) is not a good idea, IMHO.


The issue I see for this game - and the same goes for other, similar games like Everspace 1 and 2 - is that they were never designed around the joystick as input method, but rather mouse and keyboard. As such it is almost impossible to get rid of any quirks and biased design decisions when implementing it as alternate input method.


Anyway, I still have high hopes for this game considering your dedication! But I'll definitely wait until proper (direct input) joystick support is added later on before giving it another try.

[Thanos]

Hi guys !
I tried to configure the game to get it works with my HOTAS ThrustMaster T16000M.
It is very hard to know what button is used for what, but i can live with that. That's something expected when you want to use something like HOTAS.
Most important issue is that most key binding doesn't work properly (or there is something i'm doing wrong).
When you rebind something in the config menu, the key attached is something like "N/A + whatever HOTAS button you touched". My understanding is, to get this key works, you have to push a "not available" key + a button of your HOTAS. Then of course, it doesn't work.
I'll try to find the .CFG file where the key binding is defined, and play around with it if it's possible.
Sorry but i don't find how to attached a screenshot here xD

[Ghost]

If you can find the CFG file for keybindings it may be possible to manually change them. The biggest headache of that process is figuring out what each button is called within the OS. There are charts for keyboard and mouse defaults but joysticks are a whole separate can because it can vary from manufacturer. Not usually but HOTAS is also not the average joystick.

If you can find a game that has a config file that already works with HOTAS you can change the keybinding for a specific, easily identifiable, command and get the key names there.

If you don't want to go through the headache of figuring out key names and setting files to "read only" you can hang out while the devs continue their hard work to bring compatibility to as many joysticks as they can.

Just some options.

[Thanos]

Originally posted by Ghost:

If you can find the CFG file for keybindings it may be possible to manually change them. The biggest headache of that process is figuring out what each button is called within the OS. There are charts for keyboard and mouse defaults but joysticks are a whole separate can because it can vary from manufacturer. Not usually but HOTAS is also not the average joystick.

If you can find a game that has a config file that already works with HOTAS you can change the keybinding for a specific, easily identifiable, command and get the key names there.

If you don't want to go through the headache of figuring out key names and setting files to "read only" you can hang out while the devs continue their hard work to bring compatibility to as many joysticks as they can.

Just some options.

Hi Ghost,
i fund the config file, it's "StarpointGemini3Configuration.cfg" inside the SPG3 folder. But the code looks fine to me. For example :

	KEY_SWAP_WEAPONS	F	JOYSTICKBUTTON3	HIDKEY15	HIDKEY42	TMFHX_DPad_Up	H2_THR_Switch_Down	H1_DPad_Up	HIDKEY9	
	KEY_SWAP_MISSILES	G	JOYSTICKBUTTON4	HIDKEY17	HIDKEY44	TMFHX_DPad_Down	H2_THR_Switch_Up	H1_DPad_Down	HIDKEY8	

So in this example, "H2_THR_Switch_Down" should swap weapons, and "H2_THR_Switch_Down" swap missiles. But when i open the keybinding config inside the game, there is always this little "N/A + ...." in front of it, which make it unusuable. :(

I would really like to play with HOTAS, i purchase it some months ago and didn't really had fun with it yet.

But you are right, the game is still early Alpha and our LGM friends have many things to correct/implement/correct. I'll put SPG3 aside for now, and maybe reinstalled SPG2 in the meanwhile :)

@LGM guys : if you need beta tester for this HOTAS, or if you need screenshot or copy of my StarpointGemini3Configuration.cfg, feel free to contact me, i'll be glad to help.

[Ayar]

FWIW, as comparison point MW5 uses a similar approach to HOTAS/HOSAS by having .remap files that mapped InButtons seen from the diverse and varied hardware to a normalized set of OutButtons understood by the game and could be used in key assignment options screens.

As long as there was a valid mapping available, the in-game key binding screen (with 2 options per action, except for axes, mostly) could be used.

At release and with one patch, the "official" list from a somewhat large dev team was frighteningly short:

Release:
  Thrustmaster T.16000M Joystick
  Thrustmaster TWCS Throttle
  Logitech Extreme 3D Pro Joystick
  Saitek X52
  Saitek X52 Pro
  Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals
  Saitek Pro Flight X-56 Rhino Stick
  Saitek Pro Flight X-56 Rhino Throttle

Patch 1.0.185:
  Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog flight stick and throttle
  Thrustmaster T.Flight HOTAS X flight stick

However, because of this approach and ensuring the game knew what to do with dozens of buttons per device and because the developers had provided a little PDF explaining their approach:

A community-shared document grew support for roughly 50 devices, with a few comments about certain setups.

So was clear that (A) it's really not reasonable to expect the devs to support dozens of devices, each with trigger OS events for their parochial h/w triggers in different ways; but (B) a transparent approach could result in a rather impressive array of support, increasing coverage several fold; and (C) there are those in the community who will contribute their info, especially if the barrier to contribution is low. It was low, as I'm a minor contributor to that.

Here's an illustrative example for a device I don't have:

HOTASMappings.Remap:

START_BIND
NAME: VKB-SIM Space Gunfighter
VID: 231D
PID: 0126
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button1, OutButtons=Joystick_Button1
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button2, OutButtons=Joystick_Button2
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button3, OutButtons=Joystick_Button3
...(snip)...
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button6, OutButtons=Joystick_Dpad3_Up
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button7, OutButtons=Joystick_Dpad3_Right
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button8, OutButtons=Joystick_Dpad3_Down
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button9, OutButtons=Joystick_Dpad3_Left
...(snip; similar for Dpad1, Dpad2, Dpad4)...
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button10, OutButtons=Joystick_Button13
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button15, OutButtons=Joystick_Button12
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button20, OutButtons=Joystick_Button11
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button25, OutButtons=Joystick_Button14
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button26, OutButtons=Joystick_Button6
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Button27, OutButtons=Joystick_Button7
...(snip; blah blah blah more buttons)...
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Hat1, OutButtons=Joystick_Hat_1
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Hat2, OutButtons=Joystick_Hat_2
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Hat3, OutButtons=Joystick_Hat_3
BUTTON: InButton=GenericUSBController_Hat4, OutButtons=Joystick_Hat_4
...(snip; similar for hat 5, 6, 7, 8)...
AXIS: InAxis=GenericUSBController_Axis2, OutAxis=Joystick_Axis1, Invert=FALSE, Offset=-0.5, DeadZoneMin=-0.02, DeadZoneMax=0.02, MapToDeadZone=TRUE
AXIS: InAxis=GenericUSBController_Axis1, OutAxis=Joystick_Axis2, Invert=FALSE, Offset=-0.5, DeadZoneMin=-0.02, DeadZoneMax=0.02, MapToDeadZone=TRUE
AXIS: InAxis=GenericUSBController_Axis5, OutAxis=Joystick_Axis3, Invert=FALSE, Offset=-0.5, DeadZoneMin=-0.02, DeadZoneMax=0.02, MapToDeadZone=TRUE
AXIS: InAxis=GenericUSBController_Axis4, OutAxis=Joystick_Axis4, Invert=FALSE, Offset=-0.5, DeadZoneMin=-0.02, DeadZoneMax=0.02, MapToDeadZone=TRUE
AXIS: InAxis=GenericUSBController_Axis3, OutAxis=Joystick_Axis5, Invert=FALSE, Offset=-0.5, DeadZoneMin=-0.02, DeadZoneMax=0.02, MapToDeadZone=TRUE

Attention to Axis mapping is important. The game has its own dead-zone thresholds, although for Virpils I prefer their software to configure that and write to the eprom.

Since I have HOSAS--space flight uses 6 DOF a lot, making HOTAS slightly less preferred--this was nice to have. I was able to get things going pretty quickly with little work thanks to community; in fact, faster than some in-development-for-years-still-raising-money products with extensive in-game mapping.

For every other game, I use JoyToKey and HOSAM. Yes, even Spellforce 3 and what not. RDR2 is a bit weird. Can't use a console controller worth a damn, but Deity I love joysticks with too much crap on them.

[johnnykev]

Even when remapping for HOTAS, there seems to be some issue with switching weapons for me. They simply don't function. Am I missing something simple here? (this does seem likely)

[mmihokovic]

Originally posted by johnnykev:

Even when remapping for HOTAS, there seems to be some issue with switching weapons for me. They simply don't function. Am I missing something simple here? (this does seem likely)

We made some tests on HOTAS, and default settings work for us. However, you're right - weapon swapping doesn't work when rebinded. Thank you for reporting this. We'll work to find a solution for this!

[mmihokovic]

Currently it is hardcoded to use R2 + something, so combinations of that should work, but we'll tweak this further so it's easier to use and adjust

[XTRMNTR2K]

Originally posted by mmihokovic_LGM:

Currently it is hardcoded to use R2 + something, so combinations of that should work, but we'll tweak this further so it's easier to use and adjust

If I may make a suggestion, please (pretty please with cherry on top!) avoid hardcoded inputs completely if at all possible. As someone who doesn't use the WASD control scheme in FPS and similar games for instance I can't stress enough how important completely customizable controls are.

That being said I haven't played the game in a while so I can't comment on the progress that's been made. Maybe I'll give it a spin one of these days.

Back on the topic of HOTAS, would a keyboard + VKB Gladiator Mk. II setup work without issues right now?