Soldiers jumping from walls (AI path-finding bug?)

[Yozh-Sototh]

Marksdwarves climb on roof and jump into dry moat instead of shooting from fortified walls. There are plenty of bolts and crossbows. Moat is 3 tiles deep, walls are 3 high. Why do they do this?
Do net remember such suicidal behavior in non Steam version.

[Fel]

Oh, that behaviour existed long before the steam version, when they see an enemy and don't have bolts to shoot in their quiver they rush towards the enemy and use the crossbow as a (much weaker) warhammer.

Since it happens while they are in "combat mode" they get the "benefits" of having a larger range of movement like climbing and jumping (which often doesn't end well for them).

You need to close any direct path towards enemies that allows them to do that, meaning fortifications to shoot through, fully roofed off (including right above the fortification).
On the plus side it protects them from enemy that fly and/or shoot as well.

If it was even possible the steam version introduced a few more bugs to the already very messed-up marksdwarves though.

It was already somewhat needed to keep bolts outside of bins for example, but now you also want to prevent other kind of bolts to be used since they removed the old screen that allowed you to pick what type of bolts to use for training, hunting and combat.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Fel:

Since it happens while they are in "combat mode" they get the "benefits" of having a larger range of movement like climbing and jumping (which often doesn't end well for them).

Meanwhile they will gladly die of thirst/dehydration as long as they don't have to climb a 1-high-wall, or cross a 4/7 water tile...

They need to make swimming, climbing, and jumping apply as non-combat pathing options as last resorts to getting to a location if other ways don't exist / are VERY out of the way.

[Fel]

I don't know about "gladly" but yeah, they should get a mode like the combat mode when they are in a desperate situation like that.

According to Tarn they were supposed to get the ability to climb down trees after a countdown but that never worked.

[𝕮𝖔𝖗𝖛𝖚𝖘]

Hey, it's just like Fel said, you gotta build a roof over the fortification. And they will go pick bolts instead of leroooy into the moat.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2937366385

[Yozh-Sototh]

Okay, dorfs are in combat mode and it is my bad that they lack bolts.
Why invading goblins jumped into dry moat they can't climb out and run there in circles? They do it for season long.
Why visiting human bard suddenly jumped into same dry moat from fort roof?
Looks like untended path-finding bug.

[Fel]

The goblins typically try to go after everything, including animals.
If some animals happen to be in your moat they will happily trap themselves there, even if the animal in question can just fly away (that or a bug).

The bard on the other hand does sound like bug for sure.

Not sure what that pathfinding bug is, it seems to also happen with filled moats (I saw quite a few repports of it at least) but it never happened to me so I'm not sure about the specific conditions to trigger it.

[Yozh-Sototh]

Moat was empty, save some rocks my dorfs took too long to carry away.
It had single passage into fortressm whic has walled years before "invasion"
Empty or filled it acts like a magnet to everyone, who has no reason to be there.

[AlP]

Basically, every DF player probably tried building a moat in his first few forts, only to conclude that it doesn't work and never do it again.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Fel:

The goblins typically try to go after everything, including animals.
If some animals happen to be in your moat they will happily trap themselves there, even if the animal in question can just fly away (that or a bug).

The bard on the other hand does sound like bug for sure.

Not sure what that pathfinding bug is, it seems to also happen with filled moats (I saw quite a few repports of it at least) but it never happened to me so I'm not sure about the specific conditions to trigger it.

Moats are definitely bugged in general. I had a moat filled with 4/7 water that could be flooded to 7/7 in times of emergency (it wasn't always kept there just in case someone fell in), and all my visitors would hang out in the moat instead of the tavern, temple, or anywhere else despite being able to easily get out and there being no way to the fort itself inside the moat. At once point an invasion happened and I flooded the moat (visitors still inside) and they just kept chilling there, along with some of the invaders that decided to join in... so I just left the moat flooded hoping for them to drown, but it turns out I just made them god-tier swimmers because they never grew tired enough to drown even after years of swimming.

[𝕮𝖔𝖗𝖛𝖚𝖘]

Hey Yozh, what RadCon said I can confirm, also if you scroll up and look at my previous post and that screenshot, you'll see that there is a reason I have an iron fence around the moat. It's not to keep my enemies out, it's to keep 'them suicide visitors' out (especially diplomats/generals). The moment I did that they could path to the tavern or my library instead, plus it looks more cool and clean this way.

Just to make the picture clear, I did not build my moat to kill things, I did it for the aesthetic reason. If I wanted my moat to kill things, the moat would be full of magma and not water. ;D

[Yozh-Sototh]

OK. I can try to play without moats, anyway they are not serving their historical purpose in game. Also I have to make walls with roofs on top of fortifications to prevent anyone from jumping.

But there got to be glitch in AI pathfinding anyway - I recalled having my previous fortress upgraded into next capital and half of visiting barons jumped into river and after visit. All of them stangely preferred same place of road to jump into river.
Does it mean I must abandon building on riverside?

[Fel]

For your own people at least you can paint the moat (not sure if it is the floor or the top of the water so paint both just in case) into a low priority, it should be more than enough to make them take a different path.

[Yozh-Sototh]

Originally posted by 𝕮𝖔𝖗𝖛𝖚𝖘:

you'll see that there is a reason I have an iron fence around the moat.

I liked to build something like this in front of gates and link them to the lever, so invaders will have to stumble into fence on their way. Gotta check how it works now.

[Yozh-Sototh]

Originally posted by Fel:

For your own people at least you can paint the moat (not sure if it is the floor or the top of the water so paint both just in case) into a low priority, it should be more than enough to make them take a different path.

Actually I tried it to save the barons - they jumped into river anyway, May be from other point. Can't have all river to be forbidden - how do they catch fish then.

[Fel]

They only need to be next to the water to fish, not on/in it.
It's kind of the same when you play on a map where water freezes during winter, you want to avoid dwarves pathing on the ice because when it melts they usually end up drowning.
Similarly when they are in water when it freezes they get obliterated (a different kind of atom smasher).