Metal type depth

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Really enjoy the game a lot but I have one thing that's bugging me about dwarf fortress and that is game progression with metal ore types.

What I mean by that is the game doesn't feel like it has a well laid out power progression specifically because of how iron copper and bronze work. At least in my case every fort I've played iron is the first accessible ore, very rarely copper can be found but most often it along with tin is somewhere between the 2nd and third cavern.

From what I understand the reason for this is that in the real world it is similar iron veins are more common on the surface than copper or tin and that while the copper and tin are rare they are just easier to melt and smith hence why we had a bronze age before iron. (granted this is all from a non professional view correct me if I'm wrong)

I understand that if this is what they were going for but from a game play stand point I feel like there should be a progression of ore types, what do you all think?

[Fel]

It is closer to a sandbox in many cases, the ores and overall geology are closer to the real world than it is to a game's progression.
I am not saying it is exactly like in the real world but it is relatively close at least (adamantine for example has nothing to do with the real world).

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Ore
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Stone_layers
The first is a list of all of the ores available in the game, listing what layer they can be found in, the second link is where each layer is compared to others.

The short version of all of that is that coal, iron and flux are fairly common closer to the surface (which is more or less above the first cavern layer) but you need to go deeper for other ores.
Depending on where you embark, there can also be a lot of variety at that height (igneous extrusive layers), with iron, copper, silver, gold or lead for example.

Further below you get the metamorphic layers where you usually find tons of silver, lead and zinc, as well as potentially whole layers of marble (a flux stone).

Even further you find the igneous intrusive layers where you find a lot of gold as well as decent amounts of iron.


Some ores are pretty rare, like tin (needed for bronze) since cassiterite (the only tin-bearing ore) spawns only in alluvial layers (not present everywhere) or layers made of granite (relatively common igneous intrusive stone that can form whole layers), neither being guaranteed.

A decent amount of "native" ores are found in specific stone layers in similar ways.


With the default being "ores everywhere" in the version 50 you should be able to find most ores if you have the right layers, but with settings for lower ores distribution you might need to rely on importations or goblinite to get what you need.


EDIT: I kind of get what you mean but I answered outside of the question, so I would say that I enjoy the fact that not everything is about progression like in so many other games.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by Fel:

It is closer to a sandbox in many cases, the ores and overall geology are closer to the real world than it is to a game's progression.
I am not saying it is exactly like in the real world but it is relatively close at least (adamantine for example has nothing to do with the real world).

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Ore
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Stone_layers
The first is a list of all of the ores available in the game, listing what layer they can be found in, the second link is where each layer is compared to others.

The short version of all of that is that coal, iron and flux are fairly common closer to the surface (which is more or less above the first cavern layer) but you need to go deeper for other ores.
Depending on where you embark, there can also be a lot of variety at that height (igneous extrusive layers), with iron, copper, silver, gold or lead for example.

Further below you get the metamorphic layers where you usually find tons of silver, lead and zinc, as well as potentially whole layers of marble (a flux stone).

Even further you find the igneous intrusive layers where you find a lot of gold as well as decent amounts of iron.


Some ores are pretty rare, like tin (needed for bronze) since cassiterite (the only tin-bearing ore) spawns only in alluvial layers (not present everywhere) or layers made of granite (relatively common igneous intrusive stone that can form whole layers), neither being guaranteed.

A decent amount of "native" ores are found in specific stone layers in similar ways.


With the default being "ores everywhere" in the version 50 you should be able to find most ores if you have the right layers, but with settings for lower ores distribution you might need to rely on importations or goblinite to get what you need.


EDIT: I kind of get what you mean but I answered outside of the question, so I would say that I enjoy the fact that not everything is about progression like in so many other games.

I'm not saying the game isn't great as it is, I just feel like there should be an option for more or less realism, like you said iron coal and flux are usually closer to the surface than metal like copper or bronze.

All I'm saying is that I wish there was more reason to use copper and bronze at all.

[Fel]

To be fair, even if iron was lower it wouldn't give much more use to copper or bronze stuff.
Copper is just way too weak in the first place.
Bronze is more or less on par with iron, so you could end up using some of it early I guess.

The issue is that for many people, going heavily into metal stuff comes after setting up magma smelters and magma forges because the extra steps of making coke and consuming it at every step consumes quite a bit of time from your dwarves.

If you went deep enough to get magma, you already went through pretty much the entire map, so even if iron and flux were lower you would still get them quickly anyway.

You would need to rework quite a bit of the game to introduce a proper progression system, that you would most likely make around some sort of tech tree, like so many other games.
The fact that nearly everything is "unlocked" right from the start is part of what makes this game different.

I usually end up using bronze and copper as building matertials or for more common stuff like basic furnitures or cups instead of military items.

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

If you want more challenging gameplay where copper, bronze, etc. are useful, lower the frequency of ores. The game's handling of ore placement is entirely realistic as it is based on the real world.

[-=Einherjar=-]

agree ! You can experiment with [MINERAL_SCARCITY:2560] setting in world gen 2560 currently my preferable use lesser values for less occurrence if u like u can force ur worlds in stone and bone ages.

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Advanced_world_generation#Mineral_Scarcity

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by -=Einherjar=-:

agree ! You can experiment with [MINERAL_SCARCITY:2560] setting in world gen 2560 currently my preferable use lesser values for less occurrence if u like u can force ur worlds in stone and bone ages.

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Advanced_world_generation#Mineral_Scarcity

So question does mineral scarcity actually effect other CIVs in world generation?

[Trippleass]

I remember having many forts in classic where I had no iron ores. I think the mineral scarcity was default on very rare and in Premium is default on Everywhere.

[Mountain King]

Tetrahedrite is extremely common in the same shallow layers as iron. You are either unlucky or unaware it produces copper (and a bit of silver). And this isn't Minecraft, there really isn't a "progression" of materials like that, it's not uncommon to just start right off with steel like I did in my most recent fort. Other metals can be used for decoration, tools, sellable crafts, etc.