Some farming advice.

[Herodotus]

So, this is my third fortress, and the first where things have not ended terribly after the second winter. However, the fortress isn't in the best of locations, as the local river freezes over in winter and the ground is mainly sand. This means that I can't seem to grow any plump helmets. Any advice on how I can start feeding my dwarves with farming, even though I have no soil or mud?

[AlP]

You make mud on any floor by dropping water on it. You can either flood the area from the river, or you can make dwarfs haul water using buckets (and drop them from the upper level through a hole.

You should be able to grow them on sand, though. It will not be as good as growing them on lower levels though.

[Fel]

Sand counts as soil, just as bad as other soil layers for underground crops though.
It will serve just fine to prevent starvation but you'll still want to put farms in a more proper location soon.

You can also make an underground reservoir that won't freeze during winter and fill it from the river during the rest of the year.
That way you would have access to water, both for those that need it (injured dwarves only drink water) and for any other thing that requires water (making mud before making your farm for example).

You can find water and proper ground for farms in caves if you really can't make mud right now.

[Sibylla]

dig down to first cavern layer, wall off a section so enemies cant get in and put your farms there, since soi is richer you dont need big plots.

[Fel]

Cavern soil is the same as muddied rock floor.
If the cavern is not dangerous and you can wall off a part of it safely it saves you from having to muddy some floor but caverns are not always safe enough to wall a portion of any off early on.

[BlackSmokeDMax]

Originally posted by Fel:

Cavern soil is the same as muddied rock floor.
If the cavern is not dangerous and you can wall off a part of it safely it saves you from having to muddy some floor but caverns are not always safe enough to wall a portion of any off early on.

I thought a recent change made it where cavern soil is the absolute best, and muddied rock is behind that now? At least that is what I was reading people saying. No idea if they were correct as I didn't test it myself.

[Haethei]

I've never seen a world generation where you don't have enough soil to grow anything. Maybe glaciers or pure mountain biomes? Literally dig a square or two into the surface and clear out a spot for farming.

Water is nearly irrelevant to farming, you should be able to do all of your farming in the soil, sand or loam layers near the surface without involving water at all. The in-game text may say "No water/mud" but it's not required for farming on those surfaces.

Later on for fun, you can make farms that are in caverns or just regular stone layers if you want to bring water to them with bucket dumping.

You shouldn't need anything bigger than a 5x5 plot for a while, maybe two 5x5 plots if you're filling up the first one and still not making enough food. Consider growing different types of food like Cave Wheat as well, the dwarves will be a little happier

[AlP]

Originally posted by BlackSmokeDMax:

Originally posted by Fel:

Cavern soil is the same as muddied rock floor.
If the cavern is not dangerous and you can wall off a part of it safely it saves you from having to muddy some floor but caverns are not always safe enough to wall a portion of any off early on.

I thought a recent change made it where cavern soil is the absolute best, and muddied rock is behind that now? At least that is what I was reading people saying. No idea if they were correct as I didn't test it myself.

It's the z-level that matters, not the soil itself. Any top soil layer is now worse, and any cavern layer is the same as old farming.

So top soil sand is now worse, and the same sand in cavern layers, or muddied floor is working as it always did.

[BlackSmokeDMax]

Originally posted by AlP:

Originally posted by BlackSmokeDMax:

I thought a recent change made it where cavern soil is the absolute best, and muddied rock is behind that now? At least that is what I was reading people saying. No idea if they were correct as I didn't test it myself.

It's the z-level that matters, not the soil itself. Any top soil layer is now worse, and any cavern layer is the same as old farming.

So top soil sand is now worse, and the same sand in cavern layers, or muddied floor is working as it always did.

I was under the impression that muddied rock was at the same level as soil near the surface, so where does "muddied floor is working as it always did" rank?

1. Cavern Soil
2. Muddied rock
3. Soil near surface

or:

1. Cavern Soil
1. Muddied rock
2. Soil near surface

or

Something else?

[Fel]

Cavern or muddied rocks are exactly the same.
It's just soil layers (and only for underground crops) that has a big divider called "poor soil".

[McFuzz]

If you have a big enough farm and even crappy soil, clay, or sand - unfertilised and unmuddied - it will support even a large sized fortress. Just make sure ya bring extra seeds and assign designated farmers to planting and you'll be fine for food without needing to irrigate jack diddly.

You can make cavern farming a mid to late game project if it ain't cutting but, I reckon it probably will.

[Fel]

The main downside of "poor soil" is that higher skill from the planter doesn't result in bigger stacks when harvesting it after the growth period.
It means smaller batches when brewing, less dyes per bag so on.

It's passable for the very early game but it's just extra busy work with no real benefit as you start to have more dwarves.


If you are going to avoid spreading mud or going to the caves early, rather than farming underground crops in the soil layers you might as well farm above-ground crops on the surface.
Gather from the various bushes to get started, you get seeds after the crops are eaten or processed (brewed, made into threads or milled, just not cooked).
This means that you quickly get seeds to plant.

In most places there are also trees that give you nuts or fruits without needing much work (just place a zone under the trees and gather only from the ground).

[BlackSmokeDMax]

Originally posted by Fel:

Cavern or muddied rocks are exactly the same.
It's just soil layers (and only for underground crops) that has a big divider called "poor soil".

That is exactly what I thought, until I was told by someone (do not remember at all who it was) told me that was no longer the case. Suppose they were just wrong.

[Fel]

Soil layer used to be the same as the rest, that's the only thing that changed (the whole "poor soil" is new to version 50).
Maybe that is what they were saying?

[Ed1749]

All these people are talking about all kinds of complex things. The question is "how do I grow plump helmets here" and there are a few possible answers.

The Z level right below the surface might have some soil. Soil sand and clay all count as soil, if it's not rock you can farm on it. This soil wont be very good, but it's underground which will let you grow dwarven crops. This is generally where you should always start farming, as it's easy to get to and good enough until your population hits the hundreds.

Otherwise, if you can find any water, pipe it to a secured area and let it get covered in mud. If the water is only 1 or 2 deep, it will evaporate eventually. Any amount of mud will work, even dustings of mud is enough for farming. It'll even be better than the soil right below the surface.

Finally, if you have neither water nor soil, you will have to farm in the caves. Caves always come with farmable soil, although the risk of dealing with caves is not entirely always worth it. Even if mushrooms or mold start growing on the mud floor you can still farm on it.

[Herodotus]

Turns out, I am able to grow a pretty sizeable farm straight in the sand. Thanks for the advice guys.