Is Lye (and customer support) a lie?

[Irritant]

It seems the game still can't count the amount of lye you have in buckets (and there's no reliable way to prevent dwarves from leaving it in buckets). The result of this is that if you create a work order to make lye "if the amount of lye is less than 10", it will keep making lye forever (as long as there are empty buckets). If you happen to have another job to make new buckets if there are no empty buckets (as most sane players will)... you can see where this is going. Quite soon, your entire fortress is full of buckets of lye.

According to this post in the Bay12 forums, this bug (or a very similar one) was acknowledged in... 2006, and "should be solved today".

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7066.msg82206#msg82206

But according to both my own experience and this other post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zratdi/conditional_make_lye_order_wont_stop/

... it clearly wasn't.

Steam support just gives me two options: refund (which they refuse because it took me over 2 hours just to go through world generation and the tutorial) and "publisher support", that sends me to the Kitfox website, where there's no support page and clicking on "Dwarf Fortress" just sends me to the store page so I can buy Dwarf Fortress again.

The only vaguely promising link I found was here in the "Discussions" section, that sent me to a fourth website called "Notion", where they tell me to send an e-mail to a fifth website called "Mantishub", where they say I might, after three extra steps, get some feedback on a sixth website (Discord).

Basically, it feels like a series of hurdles to make sure people give up.

It's great that the game made 7 million in the first month, but maybe the publisher could invest some of that money (say, 0.5%?) on an actual support website and staff. Or, if they really don't want to have to deal with those pesky paying customers, maybe don't reject refund requests because the game was running for more than 2 hours before I even managed to actually start playing.

[AlP]

Originally posted by liosalpha:

even if its not optimal to do it in this case, like many have already said. It can still be usefull too learn the mechanics. (btw that quote is not mine.)

It's not useful to learn such mechanics, because you don't need to use such mechanics to play the game. There are very few tasks that benefit from having work orders, and they work fine.

[harlequin_corps]

Originally posted by liosalpha:

even if its not optimal to do it in this case, like many have already said. It can still be usefull too learn the mechanics. (btw that quote is not mine.)

Understandable, and I have been down this road before, The issue is that the condition itself is not a fixed item. It's a variable in and unto itself.
The preset/premade condition for lye and soap is "Lye Bearing Item", and that introduces a variable that is under less than optimal management. A lye bearing item could be a bucket, it could be a barrel, the barrel could contain 1 or multiple lye items. Additionally, lye itself is a liquid and liquids can be stored, inventoried or stockpiled just by being thrown onto the floor or in a block of the stockpile. Additionally, Ash and Soap makers have a tendency to just use the same bucket over and over. So they use a bucket, Make ash, then take the bucket, make lye, then take the bucket, and make soap. Still only 1 bucket. So using the conditional for something that won't exist until it's already been activated is less than manageable.
If you REALLY want to make a conditional work for the process of making soap and you're willing to endure the eventual takeover of every available block on your crafting floor with splashes of lye your ONLY option is to set Lye Bearing Item to be greater than 0. But, they WON'T go and pick up the lye and put it into a bucket until such time as they NEED to carry that lye liquid IN a bucket. There is NO process that forces them to pickup liquid splashes and put it into a bucket as a task in it's own right. The only task that even remot.. 2 tasks, that even remotely work like that is Collect Sand and Collect Clay (maybe.. don't quote me on that because ther.. well there's collect spider silk and shear animal). The action of collecting Lye ONLY occurs at the point where the dorf has a task that requires the carrying of the liquid from point a to point b.
The only way to get them to store lye in a stockpile is to set it in the Food section under liquids. But, again, the bucket itself is not a food storage item, only Barrels (pretty sure they will put it into pots at that point as well, maybe, but not jugs). So the only method of stockpiling lye is in a barrel, not a bucket. BUT, the lye itself after the making of Lye is IN a bucket after the Make Lye is complete, so the dorf making soap just walks over and grabs the bucket of lye, because to make lye you need an empty bucket (but not a jug).
So, with respect, this could, theoretically, be managed, This is true, however, even with the best stockpile management flow, you will STILL have splashes of lye being thrown on the ground, because to a dorf who needs a bucket, they just pickup whatever bucket they are closest to and dump the contents onto the floor, (but not barrels, barrels it's actually quite difficult to get items out of as a task in it's own right, (takes a lot of jugs for liquids and you essentially have to shut down all barrels and barrel like usages until such time as it's is emptied, which means no beer, no wine, no alcohol of any kind, for example) best way is to just drain the item out with other tasks until the barrel is empty). Thanks for reading.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Irritant:

...
Basically, it feels like a series of hurdles to make sure people give up.
...

The problem here is, indeed, due to a "bug." It's a "bug." No matter how many workarounds and claims of its trivial nature or a claimed "lack of need to do the thing," it's a "bug."

The issue is that the mechanic is presented in the same way to the player that many other repetitive tasks are presented. And, there is a progressive system to allow easier automation of these tasks, acting to relieve the player of a repetitive burden and to provide value for the progressed, achieved, new game mechanic the player can play with.

The player is basically "told" by the game that they can do thing and that doing so would very likely be a "good idea" for this consumable, critical, item. That's what the game "says" to the player, in effect.

In practice, veteran players skirt the bug by just not doing the thing and not relying on what is, ultimately, a very complex and often convoluted automation system that has plenty of bugs in it...

IF this bug did not exist, why would anyone not just set up a minimum inventory for the item and never have to worry about its much needed availability ever again?

(Hint: They would not do that... )


The issue of "bugs" being hurdles that seem only to be there to encourage the player not to play is, IMO, very real. That's the effect I am currently operating under, given I end up getting player-goal-blocked at ever darn turn. And, it's usually done by some bug that others may not even notice. Most frequently, it's by bugs that veteran players certainly discount because "their" favorite goals to achieve in "their" more knowledgeable gameplay do not include the things i want, and am encouraged to achieve via gameplay, to do. :)

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

Originally posted by AlP:

Why are you creating work orders to make lye? That's completely pointless.

Irrelevant.

[AlP]

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Originally posted by AlP:

Why are you creating work orders to make lye? That's completely pointless.

Irrelevant.

it's not irrelevant. Play the game the way it's meant to be played, this is not Factorio.

[sinnyil]

Originally posted by AlP:

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Irrelevant.

it's not irrelevant. Play the game the way it's meant to be played, this is not Factorio.

Who exactly appointed you the arbiter of the way the game is meant to be played, exactly?

The functionality is there to be used. If it's not working properly, it's a bug. That's the long and the short of it. Your opinion on the way the game is "meant" to be played holds no relevance.

[Erei]

It's not a bug per say, although it is an issue. I'll explain.
Lye is stored in a barrel.
Barrel contain more than one unit of lye, usually a lot more.
The manager count 1 barrel as "1 lye".
As such, your "10 lye" is actually 10 barrels of lye, which is like 100 lye or something silly.

This is true for everything that get stored in barrels, including food and alcohol. I had the issue early on with my manager making hundreds of meal because of that.
To solve that, make much smaller order for those. Like 2.

[AlP]

Originally posted by sinnyil:

Originally posted by AlP:

it's not irrelevant. Play the game the way it's meant to be played, this is not Factorio.

Who exactly appointed you the arbiter of the way the game is meant to be played, exactly?

The functionality is there to be used. If it's not working properly, it's a bug. That's the long and the short of it. Your opinion on the way the game is "meant" to be played holds no relevance.

The functionality is there to make playing the game easier, not to turn the game into Factorio.

The way the game is meant to be played is not my opinion, it's what decides the priority of fixing various bugs. If you play this game like Factorio, don't expect the devs to cater to your personal ideas on which bugs should be fixed. Nobody is going to prioritize fixing completely trivial bugs that have no impact on the intended gameplay just because somebody throws a tantrum on Steam forums.

[Onyx Wake]

I'm making lye right now (don't know how). Keep up with this to make soap to help your wounded.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Erei:

It's not a bug per say, although it is an issue. I'll explain.
Lye is stored in a barrel.
Barrel contain more than one unit of lye, usually a lot more.
The manager count 1 barrel as "1 lye".
As such, your "10 lye" is actually 10 barrels of lye, which is like 100 lye or something silly.

This is true for everything that get stored in barrels, including food and alcohol. I had the issue early on with my manager making hundreds of meal because of that.
To solve that, make much smaller order for those. Like 2.

That is still a bug though, I get that you are wanting to defend/explain what is happening, but that doesn't mean it isn't a bug, and OP has stated even if he has 10+ independent buckets it still doesn't count them. If it was just a problem of barrels only counting as 1 unit though that is still a bug as a barrels value should then be counted as 10, not 1.

Originally posted by AlP:

Originally posted by sinnyil:

Who exactly appointed you the arbiter of the way the game is meant to be played, exactly?

The functionality is there to be used. If it's not working properly, it's a bug. That's the long and the short of it. Your opinion on the way the game is "meant" to be played holds no relevance.

The functionality is there to make playing the game easier, not to turn the game into Factorio.

The way the game is meant to be played is not my opinion, it's what decides the priority of fixing various bugs. If you play this game like Factorio, don't expect the devs to cater to your personal ideas on which bugs should be fixed. Nobody is going to prioritize fixing completely trivial bugs that have no impact on the intended gameplay just because somebody throws a tantrum on Steam forums.

This guy on the other hand is frothing at the mouth for a pat on the back by the devs to such a point that he is trying to pretend this behavior is intentional or even a good thing. This task, and most others, absolutely WERE meant to be automated, hence making automation possible for the overwhelming majority of tasks where bugs do not inhibit you.

[harlequin_corps]

Oh.. oh.. I just remembered. To bring the true horror here, Stupid Dorf Trick #423... If you have a bucket with lye in it, and they need a bucket to make ash, to make lye, they will dump the lye in the bucket onto the floor and use it to make ash. Or if you have a bucket of ash and they need it to pickup a splash of lye to make soap, dump that on the floor to pick up the splash of lye. This is why you don't want to do 1/1 workorders in the soap process using the materials of the process as conditionals. usually 1/1 workorders with conditionals are very dependable to keep a specific number of items in stock, like 10 Rock Coffers for example, but with Soap making, you will never make soap.
Trust me, for the longest time, easily 10, 15+ years, the process of automating the making of soap was considered to be Dorf Fortress Master Level stuff (it also used to be even MORE difficult, this current version is very.. uh.. new player friendly, very pleasant to play, it's very nice), Not grandmaster like draining the caverns or doing a Magma Piston, but definately well up there in skill level. They should make it a Steam Achievement, make 10 bars of Soap. bleep bloop.

[Duuvian]

It sounds like a bug but I'd also say soap isn't used very quickly; I made a few hundred emu tallow soaps and haven't run out since. I'm not sure how many game years it's been, maybe 4 or 5? My fort population cap is 50 though, maybe it's worse in a big fort.

[AlP]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

This guy on the other hand is frothing at the mouth for a pat on the back by the devs to such a point that he is trying to pretend this behavior is intentional or even a good thing. This task, and most others, absolutely WERE meant to be automated, hence making automation possible for the overwhelming majority of tasks where bugs do not inhibit you.

Nothing was meant to be automated to the point where you need freaking folders to organize your work orders:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/975370/discussions/0/3773490215228457319/

Making pointless work orders is an entirely user problem, and never was and never will be the intended way to play the game or the focus of bug fixing.

[liosalpha]

its just some eletist BS
"PlAyInG PrOpErLy" is basicly just legends mode on the free version. Anything else is just a way to make that more engaging.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Irritant:

Originally posted by Dolph:

so solution to your problem is to use <lye> instead of <lye-containing item>

I am using lye. The game doesn't count lye inside buckets. It doesn't matter which conditions you pick, they simply don't work (with lye). Did you bother to read the link I posted?

sorry that din't helped. Just that, i had similar problem with lye, and what i did solved the problem. I've read links, and comments after that (alot of text ) maybe i lost something if so, my bad.