Miners in armor

[harlequin_corps]

So, I've been trying to come up with a better solution for miners in armor than the one I have. It's a bit cumbersome and management intensive.
So, the technique I currently have is to make all the noblity miners, then assign them armor in the Nobility Tab (except for High Boots), then assign them as miners.
there is issues with this.
first, the Champion bugs out, crash to desktop, corrupted save (at least for me it does) when you make them a Miner. Don't know why, but it's a miner less that I don't like not having.
the Captain of the Guard, Every time they go into their Office, they go through a uniform change, and that happens a lot to the point where they are unusable.
Unless you have them train and fight, their armor user skill makes them SLOOOOOW.
Limited to a small number of miners. Currently I'm 600 pop with 130 miners, and I am always using them so.
Armor has a tendency to get multiple assignments and I end up going through each piece of armor to see where it is and who has it.
I don't know what the limit for Militia Captains is, but I must be getting close to it.
There isn't a methodology for replacing worn items except going through EACH one.
Currently I'm scrapping that thought process and just making all the miners into squads w/ pick and hopefully I can force them to attack things when they are mining. Not sure if that works yet though. I think it's more likely they will drop their pick and punch whatever it is.
The end goal of having everyone in armor just isn't something I think is feasible.

[Morkonan]

First - There are known bugs and issues with "Uniforms."

This extends from not just the Military/Squad tab assignments, assigning Squads to a Uniform, but also where Dorfs have profesions/work that requires a Uniform. Those are Miner, Hunter, and Woodcutter. The uniforms there consist of weapons, pick, missile weapon, and axe respectively.

When a single dwarf is assigned to multiple uniforms, this can result in "problems." This usually happens when a dorf assigned to be in a Military Squad is also in a profession/work that requires a Uniform, but the weapon in question is different than the one assigned in the Squad's Uniform.

Weapon configurations that do not conflict can be used. Miners can be very deadly "Mining Pick Equipped" armored Military Squad dorfs...

Second - There are some known bugs and issues with "Military Tab Assigned Squad Uniforms."

To wit - To get the Uniform working properly, it appears that a military Squad must be assigned to a PREVIOUSLY EXISTING Uniform. That can be any previously existing Uniform, but it must have been created before the Squad was assigned to it, not during the Squad Creation process, itself. Also - It may be that members of a Squad must all be present at the initial assignment and if they're removed/added it could complicate Uniform issues with that specific Dorf or Squad. (Unconfirmed, haven't checked to see if this was followed up on.)

Worn Items - With a properly assigned Uniform, Dors should replace worn items on their own. HOWEVER... When a dorf claims an item to use as a replacement, that doesn't keep other dorfs from targeting it, too. Basically, those other dords then have to wait until their refresh equipment clock rolls over to try to look for another item.

The Refresh Equipment button will force the dorfs to refresh the timer/clock/period/whatsits for their search for items to wear/replace. But, it often results in all the Squad's dorfs picking the same "best item" and getting denied. (I'm not sure that the Refresh Uniform button isn't a terrible idea due to this issue - It's sets them all up to repeatedly fail. :))

Armor/metal stuffs degrade at a very slow rate... unless they're also stored in a Stockpile that has a Refuse tag on it, IIRC. That forces them to rapidly deteriorate. And, yes, that's another bug... :/


Recycle any worn metal items via smelting. And, there are some nice benefits for doing so:

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Exploit#Infinite_metal

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Melt_item#Exploit

By configuring this properly and keeping your Armor/Weapon smiths working, you can eventually get to the point where all your dorfs are equipped in the best high-quality armor.

PS: On "bugs" - There are multiple bugs that do impact certain bits of gameplay and, IMO, they're only outnumbered by the number of unstable, only partially functional, work-arounds people have come up with in an attempt to counter them, player-side. DF is is desperate need of a bug-squash pass for bugs that the player is going to have in their face the entire time they're playing and "all things dealing with Uniforms" is pretty close to the top of that list, if not at the very top...

[harlequin_corps]

right. so, Beyond that, still looking for a better solution for Miners in armor besides assigning from the Nobility Tab.

[harlequin_corps]

I think that we're a couple steps out of sequence, so I will back up a couple steps.
So it's really easy to make a Miner wear armor.

Step 1. Take your king (or queen, whatever), Designate them as a Miner
Step 2. In the Nobility Tab, assign them a Steel Helm
Step 3. In the Nobility Tab, assign them a Steel Mail Shirt
Step 4. In the Nobility Tab, assign them a Steel Breastplate
Step 5. In the Nobility Tab, assign them a Steel Leggings
Step 6. In the Nobility Tab, assign them a Right and Left Steel Gauntlet.

And there you go, you have a Miner in (almost) full armor. The steel high boots, because they are shaped won't go over the shoes, however, there is a pre-mod available in the Steam Workshop that assigns the Shaped tag to shoes, so using that will allow you to also assign Steel High Boots. go check that out.
Then for all the rest of your nobility, repeat the process (except for the Captain of the Guard and the Champion)
To make the rest of your Miners wear armor, designate them as Militia Captains in the Nobility Tab, then assign them armor. The bonus to this process is you can still assign most of the artifacts except for the shaped head pieces like turbans (And possibly Crowns, maybe, haven't had one in a while so I don't know)

BUT, there ARE issues.
First and foremost, they are SLOOOOOOOW, like really slow, like if your Manager/Broker/Bookkeeper is part of this process they can no longer do their jobs, at all. Because they don't have enough Armor User skill to move fast enough to get to a mining site and back to their offices in time. Dungeon Master and Chief Medical Dorf is fine, just don't have your Chief medical dorf be one of your hospital staff. And Hammerer is fine, although nothing will survive a Legendary Miner auto hitting 20 times with a Steel Pick.
Second, they don't have the Discipline to really stay toe to toe in a fight, but they are too slow to run away, They don't have all the other combat skills like Dodge, Wrestle, Fighter what have you. So you are kind of basing an entire process off of that magic one shot from a Legendary Miner with a Steel Pick. Which doesn't actually happen that often. That being said, a Legendary Miner in a martial trance with a Steel Pick, in (almost) full steel armor? Nothing going to survive that, the dorf might not survive, but there you go.
Third, You are assigning armor which may, in fact is MOST likely to, be worn by someone in your military squads. This isn't really a problem, assign the Armor in the Nobility Tab, then Assign uniforms to your squads, they won't put the Nobility Assigned armor back on again.
and finally, because it's essentially permanently assigned, although not really gaining increasing Worn status a lot unless they are getting hit a lot, They will wear that armor until it destroys itself. This is generally fine, but it does mean you have to go back and painstakingly go through and find/assign other armor.
What I was wondering is if someone had a better workaround than this, because it's relatively painless at the beginning, but gains pain the longer it goes along.

[harlequin_corps]

Oh.. speaking of which, you don't EVEN have to assign as a Militia Captain, you can assign as a Messenger and still assign armor. In my current playthrough I have a King, a Duchess, a Countess and 4 Barons/Baronesses, all of which are completely useless and might as well get some work done for all the pain they produce.

[harlequin_corps]

I think what I'm going to do is create Nobility/Miner squads with Pick as a weapon and put them full time on training in full armor, Then as each person gains max Armor user, peel them out and put them into full armor and back to work as a Miner. I already have a full roster of Legendary Miners so I won't actually be losing much combat capability.

[harlequin_corps]

So.. finally have my first Legendary Miner/Legendary Armor User in full armor with steel boots. Actually got 3 of them. Took 13 game years to do it. So, after dancing the finicky dance, playing the waiting game and gradually let things evolve rigmarole. Finally, I get a Legendary Armor User. On the final assignment of the Steel High Boots and the rest of the armor, breastplate, helm etc. I single in on that one dorf, wandering around and Picking up Equipment. I even wrote the names down of the armor items in case I had to go through everything to find them. And what does the little r.. ra.. rare individual.. that pr... precious.. b.. beautiful little .. Dorf.. do? FIRST Armok be damned thing they pick up and put on is the damn Steel High Boots. Even before they grabbed their loincloth..

side note.. Easy peasy actually. Forbid all the shoes. they will then put the high boots on. It really is as simple as that.

side side note. Turns out.. Ok.. this one is plainly intuitive.. just it's surprising that it's that easy. If a Soldier has a shield, most of the time they will block with the shield. This raises their Shield skill. If they have no shield, they take hits on their armor. This raises their Armor User skill. So.. to have Miners with a 2 handed pick gain Armor User skill, then.. give them a pick and armor and send them to train? yes.. it really is that easy. It just takes a while is all.

Side side side note. Using Messenger to assign armor has an interesting quirk. You have to pay attention otherwise odd things will happen. The armor is assigned to the Messenger slot. Not the dorf you are giving it to. So if you take that dorf out, or it died and you assign another dorf to that slot, the armor for that slot goes to the new dorf, and they automatically put it on. So, when you click that slot for assignment of armor, if you have green checkmarks already there, that's the armor for the dorf that previously had that slot. to remove it you just uncheck the green checky and assign the new armor you want them to wear. You can lock armor down by not unchecking it or they will go pick up the old armor before they grab the new armor. It's just an oddity that you don't really notice. The difficult bit.. if you assign armor to a Baron, who then gets promoted, that armor is still assigned to the barony not the county. And it doesn't come up on the list. So that locks that armor out and you can't assign it anymore.

[harlequin_corps]

If for some reason you get someone who finagles a shoe or two from wherever, just put them into a squad, assign No Uniform with Wear Uniform instead of Clothing selected and Wear Always. They will strip down, taking off their shoes, So using that and Forbidding all shoes in the fortress in Stocks, take them back out of the squad and they put the High Boots on. The painful bit is if you care about it is checking through every now and then to see if they still have both boots on. And that the armor still exists, it's not an artifact so it will eventually be destroyed.

[Rex Regis]

i have been using military squads (with uniforms set to always be worn even when off duty) to assign arms/armor and havent had any issues. got all my miners/lumber-lacks/hunters in squads using their "weapons" but light leather armor (didnt use full plate as it would be heavy and its not like im expecting them to fight all the time) and then made civilian militia teams that along with the miners/lumber-lacks/hunters spend 3 months out of the year training

other then the first set up i havent really had to mess with it

[Morkonan]

Edit-Add: For all those about to draw steel - This isn't a complaint about the devs, the game, the publishers... It just "is." I know some may still attempt a counter-attack, but... ain't nobody got time for that. This is just about one thing in the game that is borked. That's all that it is.

On Military Pick Squads - The only basic working soluition, if it's actually working for longer than the next battle/clothing change, is to treat them just like a Therapy Squad - Put them in there and assigned them a uniform with Pick so, maybe, they won't try to change it for the Miner's Uniform.

For boots, high-boots are "armor" AFAIK and that's the only "boot" that seems to be footwear proof if you assign socks. (I've made fully layered uniforms and have made them work, mostly, for awhille. How long will they work like that for their dorfs? ... ? ... ... About that long, probably.

Note: According to the DF-Vets, the way it is done in DF "works" for that version of DF. I have my doubts, but since I don't play it, they're the authority on that version, so.. /shrug

IMO - Something down in the low-level behaviors or squad/uniform codes kicks something out and then that is that for whatever uniform a dorf is trying to fiddle with. And, perhaps, that rebounds back to the rest of the squad or whatever jobs-order that's working. /dunno /notmycircus

Originally posted by harlequin_corps:

If for some reason ...

(rng quote :))

Here's the thing...

From the fifty-eleven hours I've spent looking for "solutions" to the "give the dorfs stuffs to wear" the only one that "appears" to work is to make an armor set using a dummy-squad, deleting the squad, then creating a new squad and assigning them the "already created armor set." Does it work? Eh... it works until it doesn't due to dorfish reasons... (Credit to whatsisname that was posting vids on the forum for awhile. :) )

But, I think the reality is that armor sets and squad assignments to use them are borked.


I've discovered that the wiki is useless for bug-fixes, but it can be handy to tell you what part of the game may look like it's working, but really isn't. Anway - It's borked. There can be fifty-eleven testimonials proclaiming that it works, but if their magic pixie-dust got it to work it's probably "not really" working... :)

I think it's that simple. The menu is there and once one gets some intuition about how it's designed to work, one can assign armor sets and think that everything is fine. So, since it doesn't error out and dorfs appear to start trying to wear the uniform, one "thinks" it's working.

But it's borked.

It was rushed and it's borked. (That's a kind of near-quote from interviews... ;)) That's all there is to it.

Soon, there will be someone coming along to correct me and they will present the thread with the "proper" way to do it and then criticize me for being teh stoopid...

And, you know what? Their way, which will in no way be intuitive at all given the current design of the UI, might even work. For... a little while. And, when they notice it's really not working all the time? Yeah, they won't come back to report their cool big-brain method won't really work, will they?


How many of those highly respected Dorf Fortress Veteran Experts Esq. ever came back to their "tutorial" vids to advise their viewers their procedure really doesn't work? (I'll wait while some nice soul goes out there and counts them... I know of one youtuber who tried and that's it. That's whatsisname, who I can 'member atm, but may correct when I can check my links.)


Of the initial 70+ hours I spent (before pressing the play-button) online watching tutes, streams, let's plays, more tutes, more vids published correcting the previous tutes, other vids posted saying they were the Real Solution to the problems... Not one of at least five "testified and certified and amalgamated federalistized" methods to use the uniform feature safely and without harming children or other small animals ever actually worked fully. They all, without fail, broke down and didn't work. If they had ever worked, they eventually stopped working properly. (Maybe due to the systems not being able to handle the other issues with inventory and item claiming or some other issue that wasn't even supposed to come in to work, today.)

On combining this system with other systems, systematically - Combining the Uniform system with another mechanic outside of the Squad menu is like mixing witches brew with hydrazine - It's pretty arcane and will probably explode. :) I wouldn't mix those systems on a bet. You might summon something you can't banish...


The real solution is for Bay12 and Kitfox to FIX this high-visibility bug. It's hi-vis. It's going to be in front of every player's face, eventually, and it will stay there during their entire gaming session and beyhond. This is a high-vis problem that other product developers would call in a second-shift to fix. People would be staying late, working overtime, getting this out from in front of the face of the customer. And, that's what should be done.

(The gaming industry doesn't have to worry about things like that, so they don't prioritize quality control properly. They get their money FIRST and they never have to let go of it even if they don't fix a thing. I'm not saying that's the attitude of these devs/publishers, that's just the general environmental forcers at work, here.)


Someone's gonna call BS. Okidedoke. But, the proof that this is an issue is in this thread and all over the place in the forum, reddit, youtube, twitch, maybe even in the devs/publishers forums, NASA, the Hague... heck-if-i-know. But, all these people trying to get this simple system, evidenced by its blurb-like UI, to work... aren't dumb. They're having issues and it's not user-side. Polygon ain't gonna say nuthin' about it, though, are they?

PS: This is one of three reasons I'm not playing DF right now. I simply got tired of being reminded, by the game, of things that the game said worked don't actually work, but really would have been nice to have in the game. :/

PPS: Before, above, I was more-or-less resigned to try to work with the system and I eagerly explored any proposed solution. And, like waking up one day and discovering the warranty for "The Rest of Your Life" has expired... I sort of figured out that it wasn't really worth devoting a lot of energy to until a higher power gets involved. :) (Note: Your Human Warranty has to be re-upped somewhere around 30 yrs or so, but once you hit your forties, and certainly by around your mid-fifties, it's just plain done. :))

[harlequin_corps]

Originally posted by Rex Regis:

i have been using military squads (with uniforms set to always be worn even when off duty) to assign arms/armor and havent had any issues. got all my miners/lumber-lacks/hunters in squads using their "weapons" but light leather armor (didnt use full plate as it would be heavy and its not like im expecting them to fight all the time) and then made civilian militia teams that along with the miners/lumber-lacks/hunters spend 3 months out of the year training

other then the first set up i havent really had to mess with it

They take off their soldier uniform to go mine. If you want them to hit rocks with a pick in armor you have to use something else besides a squad uniform. Miner's and Woodcutters are the two uniforms that replace a Soldier uniform and are therefore the only people that, normally, you have getting attacked w/o armor on. To get them to wear armor while they are picking at it, you can use the Nobility Tab. Normally, they won't put on boots even when assigned in the Nobility Tab because of shoes. Forbid all the shoes, and then they will put on full armor assigned from the nobility tab.

[harlequin_corps]

so, I realized I was missing a trick. Since I am already forbidding EVERY shoe in the entire fortress, to put miners into steel high boots, why not just remake the Soldier uniforms to wear over clothing rather than instead of clothing. And sure enough, they all go pick up and put on their steel high boots. go figure. had to make 200 sets of steel high boots for the skirmishers that I send on missions, but hey.. They have foot protection now.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by harlequin_corps:

so, I realized I was missing a trick. Since I am already forbidding EVERY shoe in the entire fortress, to put miners into steel high boots, why not just remake the Soldier uniforms to wear over clothing rather than instead of clothing. And sure enough, they all go pick up and put on their steel high boots. go figure. had to make 200 sets of steel high boots for the skirmishers that I send on missions, but hey.. They have foot protection now.

I just include "Instead of Clothing," but use a layered Uniform that includes Clothing items and then nothing but the armor High Boots. (I include socks, too.) They "seem" to select for it, but I can't vouch for its actual useability ('Cause the issues surrounding the Uniform mechanic seem very unpredictable to me.) Your system should work as well up to and until one of them wants to wear cloth shoes or the like. It depends on when/if they find High Boots or shoes, first, I think. They "should" prioritize the assigned High Boots, but they probably won't... probably.

[harlequin_corps]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Your system should work as well up to and until one of them wants to wear cloth shoes or the like.

You are absolutely correct. As soon as you unforbid the shoes from the fortress they immediately go and take off their assigned boots and put the shoes on. This means that you can't sell them to trader, move to a stockpile, throw into magma, etc. Your only solution is to just wait until all the shoes eventually rot. However, my objective for this playthrough is complete. with the additional benefit, once making changes to the Soldier's uniform to wear over clothing, that my clothing industry requirements are reduced by.. half? However many soldiers I have, because they are wearing their civilian clothing. Add another reduction because I'm not producing any shoes. And then I have THIS going on.. which is what I want...
Now.. how to insert thingy.. hold please.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2944318451
This dorf is Legendary Miner/Legendary Armor User, plus all the concomitant fighting capability from training for x game years. Currently I have.. 23 of these I think? You kind of lose count after a while with my system because I'm constantly taking the Legendary Miners and putting them into Pick Training Squads and then periodically going through all my squads including the Axe Lords and Hammerers to find people who are also Legendary Armor Users. Having Legendary Miner isn't actually the key bit. It's the Armor User that's the key bit. They can skill up Miner fighting skill hitting rocks.
I'm still losing dorfs to things, but it's the Haulers/Dwarven children mostly. I haven't bothered to change the Chores to keep the Children from Hauling, because they Wander/Play Make Believe wherever anyway, and I'm lazy. The Haulers, since eventually the entire fortress except for the priests/bartenders will be in armor because they are in squads set to wear always.. Eventually .. eventually I will have almost everyone in full armor. Still making steel armor.. it takes a while for 500 pop.

[harlequin_corps]

One thing I've noticed so far, that sucks.. it's really stupid. Has nothing to do with this but I'm heading out.
Bins SUCK.. They really do. I will give an example. Let's say you have a stockpile. It has an item in it. It's FINE where it is, it doesn't need to be moved.. But the game, because there's a bin that could take the thing, set's up a task for the thing to move it FROM the stockpile it's in, WHICH MAY EVEN INCLUDE THE BIN IN QUESTION... to move it from the stockpile to the bin.. THAT is stupid.