Giant Elephants starving to death

[Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow]

I miraculously managed to tame 5 giant elephants and train them for war.

However, my 4x4 embark is not big enough to feed them for more than a few days, despite it being almost entirely covered in not only grass, but edible plants and fruit-trees as well.

As I understand it, giant elephants are grazers, but your dwarves can still feed them, for instance during training. But are they purely limited to those two modes of feeding? If the ground in their pen is littered with fallen, ripe fruit, wouldn't it make sense for them to eat it?


(Think) I Found the issue on Mantis, made an account to report it but can't figure out how that works (no option when prompted to select the "project" my issue is related to, among a few other things), so now I'm desperate and posting it here instead.

I'm 99% sure this is either the exact issue I encountered, or a highly similar one:
https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4113#bugnotes


Anyone else struggle with feeding huge grazers? What did you end up doing?

[Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow]

İlk olarak pezenwever tarafından gönderildi:

Your file might reflect the value you set, but I experienced myself grass not growing back after changing the grazin coefficient during a game. My yaks turned everything into a brown puddle.
However, in a new game with this setting the grass didn't change at all. I had a full green map with plenty of yaks trampling around.

Okay, but in this case the issue is that no matter how much grass is available, and no matter how much they eat, they only get hungrier. I haven't yet reached the point where I'm out of grass and need it to grow back.

Did you have the same issue as me, with grazers never being able to eat enough to stop starving..? Or did your yaks manage to fill their bellies with grass, only the grass never grew back..?

[kheftel]

İlk olarak Unagi tarafından gönderildi:

Or maybe your use of the coefficient is backwards?

The formula for a Grazer is such:
GRAZER = 20000 × G × (max size) -3/4.

where G is the Graze Coefficient.

Seems like you may like to make the number smaller, not bigger.

It's actually raised to the -3/4 power, which is taking a root, so bigger needing less grass is correct.

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Grazer

[Gosera]

İlk olarak Unagi tarafından gönderildi:

Or maybe your use of the coefficient is backwards? Not sure why you would want it to be bigger... It should be made smaller.

The formula for a Grazer is such:
GRAZER = 20000 × G × (max size) -3/4.

where G is the Graze Coefficient.

Seems like you may like to make the number smaller, not bigger.

The higher Coefficient is the higher the end number will be, for example giant elephants gives 22.36... when using 100 and with 5000 it gives 1118 the value that comes out is how much each grass reduces there hunger which increses every tick and unless they can eat enough and not hit 100000 they will die. dont reamber how much it increses a tick, but the problem arrives that they haft to have big enough pen that has enough grass where they can walk and eat enough to survive

[malthenielsen]

I wondered if those game settings work like "in realtime" or if they're only applied to when the game starts?

It seems counter intuitive to me that you can change the pop cap from 50 to 49 and then the game chooses a dwarf to kick out. Or that you could turn invaders off in the middle of an invasion to make them go away,

Seems more likely to me that you set it from the beginning and then the game runs on these settings?

So I'm not sure if changing the grazing coefficient can save this fort. Maybe the new setings are just applied in the next fort or even world?

[Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow]

İlk olarak Unagi tarafından gönderildi:

Or maybe the your use of the coefficient is backwards?

The formula for a Grazer is such:
GRAZER = 20000 × G × (max size) -3/4.

where G is the Graze Coefficient.

Seems like you may like to make the number smaller, not bigger.

Tried setting it to the lowest possible value, and as far as I could tell it didn't alleviate the issue at all.

Also, the "GRAZER" value of the equation is proportionate to the amount of "sustenance" a creature receives when grazing. A rabbit has a default "GRAZER" value of 106365.918, while a standard elephant has one of 106.366, according to the Wiki.

Would lowering the graze coefficient really result in a higher "GRAZER" value..?

Sorry, as mentioned, I bad maths, calculator broke.

[Gosera]

İlk olarak Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Unagi tarafından gönderildi:

Or maybe the your use of the coefficient is backwards?

The formula for a Grazer is such:
GRAZER = 20000 × G × (max size) -3/4.

where G is the Graze Coefficient.

Seems like you may like to make the number smaller, not bigger.

Tried setting it to the lowest possible value, and as far as I could tell it didn't alleviate the issue at all.

Also, the "GRAZER" value of the equation is proportionate to the amount of "sustenance" a creature receives when grazing. A rabbit has a default "GRAZER" value of 106365.918, while a standard elephant has one of 106.366, according to the Wiki.

Would lowering the graze coefficient really result in a higher "GRAZER" value..?

Sorry, as mentioned, I bad maths, calculator broke.

Dont be sorry about being bad at maths, its not everyones fav thing or that enjoyable.

So becuse of the equation using a negative exponents it becomes a multiplication inverse of its base in this case the size of the animal, so for the giant elephant that would be

4000000^-0.75 = 1,11...

so with out that coefficency multiplying that number you will always have a small number to deal with, hence higher coefficeny = higher amount of food gain

[Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow]

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

I wondered if those game settings work like "in realtime" or if they're only applied to when the game starts?

It seems counter intuitive to me that you can change the pop cap from 50 to 49 and then the game chooses a dwarf to kick out. Or that you could turn invaders off in the middle of an invasion to make them go away,

Seems more likely to me that you set it from the beginning and then the game runs on these settings?

So I'm not sure if changing the grazing coefficient can save this fort. Maybe the new setings are just applied in the next fort or even world?

I don't think it works like that.
I know it didn't in Pre-Steam DF, but that was using DFHack and Lazy Newb Pack, to be fair.

But think about it the other way around.

What if you want to strictly limit the number of dwarves in your fort during the first few months/years of play, because you aren't able/willing to manage 100+ dwarves until you have set up your fort properly.

Then, once you are ready, you restore the population capacity to the regular values, to allow for more migrants/births.

If the settings were set in stone at worldgen/pre-embark, this wouldn't be possible, meaning anyone who starts a fort that's initially limited to, say 25 dwarves, with a 10% cap on childbirths, and a hard limit of 30, would never be able to expand beyond those numbers.

I don't think the game kicks anyone out.
It just limits new arrivals and births, and given time, you WILL drop back below the limit. (deathFUN is inevitable, after all)

Regardless, even if the grazing coefficient was set in stone, it wouldn't explain why my Llama is also starving, seeing as their base "GRAZER" value is set at 1,286.991, meaning they require less than 10% of the grass a regular sized elephant needs, and less than half of what a cow needs...

[malthenielsen]

İlk olarak Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

I wondered if those game settings work like "in realtime" or if they're only applied to when the game starts?

It seems counter intuitive to me that you can change the pop cap from 50 to 49 and then the game chooses a dwarf to kick out. Or that you could turn invaders off in the middle of an invasion to make them go away,

Seems more likely to me that you set it from the beginning and then the game runs on these settings?

So I'm not sure if changing the grazing coefficient can save this fort. Maybe the new setings are just applied in the next fort or even world?

I don't think it works like that.
I know it didn't in Pre-Steam DF, but that was using DFHack and Lazy Newb Pack, to be fair.

But think about it the other way around.

What if you want to strictly limit the number of dwarves in your fort during the first few months/years of play, because you aren't able/willing to manage 100+ dwarves until you have set up your fort properly.

Then, once you are ready, you restore the population capacity to the regular values, to allow for more migrants/births.

If the settings were set in stone at worldgen/pre-embark, this wouldn't be possible, meaning anyone who starts a fort that's initially limited to, say 25 dwarves, with a 10% cap on childbirths, and a hard limit of 30, would never be able to expand beyond those numbers.

I don't think the game kicks anyone out.
It just limits new arrivals and births, and given time, you WILL drop back below the limit. (deathFUN is inevitable, after all)

Regardless, even if the grazing coefficient was set in stone, it wouldn't explain why my Llama is also starving, seeing as their base "GRAZER" value is set at 1,286.991, meaning they require less than 10% of the grass a regular sized elephant needs, and less than half of what a cow needs...

If the giant elephants eat all the grass, I guess the llama also starves as there's no grass left for it to eat?

I haven't used the game settings really, but since they're a newly added we don't know exactly-for-sure how they work.

Like you say, the pop can can work in different ways, and before we know we can't be sure. Like if you have 50 dwarves and the cap is 50, does it prevent births? New citizens from petitions you accept? I guess you're right and what it prevents is migrants, but it's hard to be sure before somebody tested it. It MIGHT stop visitors from sending petitions, but who knows?

It's too bad it's hard to get giant elephants easy, because IF the settings change for the next fort then you could have giant elephants there. But these ones would be doomed.

You could save and then retire or abandon the fort and reclaim it to see if it kicks in the grazing settings. (And quit those without saving if it doesn't work).

It's also possible that it's just bugged out and cannot work ... it's just sad if that's the case, giant elephants are neat!

[Gosera]

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

Like you say, the pop can can work in different ways, and before we know we can't be sure. Like if you have 50 dwarves and the cap is 50, does it prevent births? New citizens from petitions you accept? I guess you're right and what it prevents is migrants, but it's hard to be sure before somebody tested it. It MIGHT stop visitors from sending petitions, but who knows?

in the d_init_default.txt they explain the pop cap like this

"You can set the maximum population of your fortress here. Keep in mind that your population must be at least 80 to get a monarch and 100 to obtain the current game features. The strict cap also stops fort births. Both caps can be violated by a few special cases, like the arrival of the monarch if you qualify."

[Helios]

İlk olarak Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow tarafından gönderildi:

As I mentioned, I maxed out the grazing coefficient, increasing it from 100 to 1000000, meaning grazing should (if I understood things correctly) be more than enough to allow my Giant Elephants to survive on the available grass.

Though, full disclosure, I can't verify this, because I lack formal higher education, and the grazing equation exclusively throws out errors when I try to enter it (with the appropriate numbers filled in) into a calculator.

But regardless, my one stray Llama certainly shouldn't be starving now.
It shouldn't even be starving with the default coefficient in place.
But it is.

No matter how much any of my grazers eat, they are slowly descending into starvation.

I checked "d_init.txt" to verify, and the gracing coefficient is indeed set at 1000000.


What could be causing this? I only use three mods, and they all exclusively add/modify graphical assets, absolutely no changes to creatures, entities, or anything else of the sort.
(The mods are "Rounded hills", "Squad & Burrow Icons", and "Interface Tweaks")

Furthermore, I've used those mods previously while running a "cattle farming" fort (Elk Birds, actually. I managed to overcome their suicidal reproduction habits) and all animals assigned to the underground pasture (which was less than half the size of my current pasture) managed to stay fed in that fort with absolutely no issue, at the default 100 grazing coefficient.


I'm starting to think my fort might just be irreparably bugged, which is a damn shame.
If I can't even keep regular-sized grazers fed, I guess I'll just have to farm cats like all the other Urists.

go underground make a big room under soil flood it with a bit of water if you can and dig til you hit the first cavern layer i have a huge amount of animals grazing on cave fungus and cave moss underground (with standart grazing setting).

[malthenielsen]

İlk olarak Gosera tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

Like you say, the pop can can work in different ways, and before we know we can't be sure. Like if you have 50 dwarves and the cap is 50, does it prevent births? New citizens from petitions you accept? I guess you're right and what it prevents is migrants, but it's hard to be sure before somebody tested it. It MIGHT stop visitors from sending petitions, but who knows?

in the d_init_default.txt they explain the pop cap like this

"You can set the maximum population of your fortress here. Keep in mind that your population must be at least 80 to get a monarch and 100 to obtain the current game features. The strict cap also stops fort births. Both caps can be violated by a few special cases, like the arrival of the monarch if you qualify."

That settles the births!

But I'd also like to know though, if you can change it during the lifetime of a simple fort.

[Gosera]

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

But I'd also like to know though, if you can change it during the lifetime of a simple fort.

From what we know it only take effect the next time the game is loaded and it will apply to all worlds.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/D_init.txt

[Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow]

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

If the giant elephants eat all the grass, I guess the llama also starves as there's no grass left for it to eat?

I haven't used the game settings really, but since they're a newly added we don't know exactly-for-sure how they work.

Like you say, the pop can can work in different ways, and before we know we can't be sure. Like if you have 50 dwarves and the cap is 50, does it prevent births? New citizens from petitions you accept? I guess you're right and what it prevents is migrants, but it's hard to be sure before somebody tested it. It MIGHT stop visitors from sending petitions, but who knows?

It's too bad it's hard to get giant elephants easy, because IF the settings change for the next fort then you could have giant elephants there. But these ones would be doomed.

You could save and then retire or abandon the fort and reclaim it to see if it kicks in the grazing settings. (And quit those without saving if it doesn't work).

It's also possible that it's just bugged out and cannot work ... it's just sad if that's the case, giant elephants are neat!

That's the thing, there's plenty of grass left for the Llama. I've even seen it eat.
It was "healthy", then became "hungry", and is now "starving", all while eating loads of grass on increasingly high graze coefficient values.

I frequently changed pastures as to not limit the amount of grass available.


The pop caps aren't that much of a mystery, however.
And they aren't really new to the Steam release, either.

Not that it is all too relevant, but here's my understanding of them, based on experience and available first-hand accounts:

Population cap: You won't get migrants at this point, or past it.
I assume this includes petitioners seeking citizenship, but not guests as they have their own cap.

Strict population cap:
No children can be born at or past this point. Essentially, you're not meant to be able to go higher than this, but I suspect that perhaps necromancy could allow you to go beyond it, assuming resurrection into intelligent undeads is possible.

Baby+child cap: The total amount of children and babies that can be present in your fort, at any time. Obviously, this also limits childbirths, but I'm not sure if it prevents children/babies from immigrating to your fort.

Baby+child cap (percentage of total): Same deal as the previous cap, except it's based on a percentage of the population. So, if you have it set to 25%, but no other caps on childbirth, it would mean a fortress of 100 dwarves could have no more than 25 children or babies.

And finally, visitor cap: The aforementioned cap on guests and other visitors.
I don't think it includes invaders, but I'm not 100%.

[Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow]

İlk olarak Gosera tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak malthenielsen tarafından gönderildi:

But I'd also like to know though, if you can change it during the lifetime of a simple fort.

From what we know it only take effect the next time the game is loaded and it will apply to all worlds.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/D_init.txt

Loaded as in "starting the executable" or loaded as in "loading a save"..?

I did try both, but I might try again if that's how it's meant to work.

[Gosera]

İlk olarak Eqqsquizitine Buble-Schwinslow tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Gosera tarafından gönderildi:

From what we know it only take effect the next time the game is loaded and it will apply to all worlds.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/D_init.txt

Loaded as in "starting the executable" or loaded as in "loading a save"..?

I did try both, but I might try again if that's how it's meant to work.

Considering the file name and how its worded, i would guess at the executable loading up.

for your other note, that sounds like something that need dwarf science about, there honestly could be a bug where a to high of a coefficency give so much food it can't handle it properly