Advice about Goblin Civilization needed.

[Morkonan]

I've had frequent Goblin attacks all through my first, real, playthrough.

I'm at around 220 Dorfs, Mountainhome, King in residence, yada yada yada...

I misunderstood the "value" of Siege Engines and Door Mechanics, so am having to restructure my defenses a bit. I have three well-trained Squads and a Militia squad as well as a standard Guard squad (The Cops). Steel and all that, etc..

(I also have a Necro Tower to worry about, but I am not sure how to count the Tiles as "distance" in the world map. Twenty tiles appear to be the limit for Undead Sieges and I don't know if that includes "diagonal" counting, too... (Anyone?) I've had members of that Civ/Tower visit and attempt to steal things, but I don't know that necessarily means that they can Besiege me. They're not currently "hostile.")

The issue is that I need to do something about this Goblin Civilization. They're growing at an alarming rate. My own Dorf Civ is quite distant, since I forgot to pay attention to that when picking a spot. :) I got Caravans from them, but now only get them from the Humans due to being the Capitol.

Gobbie holes have been growing in population pretty quickly and their raids have increased against all the nearby friendly civs, including my own Fortress. (They don't go down to where the rest of my Civ is.) They are expanding, as well, building new hoiles in the ground...

I've had to suspend raids/etc for now in order to correct for my mistaken "knowledge." Why? I'm using this fortress atm to learn advanced game mechanics and the like. :) Plus, why not? :)

But, in order to actually affect something worthwhile, I'm going to have to eventually "attack" these Gobbie holes with great determination...

AFAIK - I can't get a Tactician until i start "raiding" and using skills like Ambusher to hopefully level up a Tactician that will then influence combat results in other Mission actions. True? False? irdumbr?

1) Are there any clear mechanics outlined for Missions and the variables that affect success? So far, for combat missions, the only ones I can find that apply directly are Tactician-related. I don't even know that all-steel Dorfs even matter and it's only a Skill-based calculation or not. (There's a pitiful amount of actuall mechanics discussion on the subject.) Does anyone have any breakdowns of the mechanic or know the variables I need to focus on?

IOW - How to do what I can to ensure the best chances for raze/conquest success? (Not guaranteed success, of course.)

2) Should I just Turtle up and watch their population dwindle from their losses in their Sieges against me, then try to strike back? (That's sort of what I'm trying to prepare for, but it's going to take some time. I don't want to be overrun just because certain mechanics weren't very clear... I don't mind failing to a mistake, just don't want to fail to a misinterpretation of "teh rules.")

3) No other civilizations seem to send forces to attack them, even though they're enemies. Will they? Can they? Is there hope of relief or assistance with them? :)

4) Would it be better to set up this current Fortress and then retire from it to then start up another in the same Civilization in terms of any potential for it to counter-attack against the Gobbies better than I currently can, not having any Tacticians? (The Gobbies are pretty strong in terms of the number of their holdings and population. The smallest holdings appear to be around 60 pop.) I will eventually do this, should my Fortress survive for awhile longer, but... the gobbies are pretty darn stronk atm..

5) Does the world map count diagonally in terms of "range" or linearly? IOW - A Necro Tower shouldn't be able to raid me if i am further than 20 tiles away. If that includes diagonal tiles, I've may have bigger problems if that Tower doesn't remain non-hostile. Will they eventually go "hostile" though? (No clue, here.)

[Barbiz]

Hey Morkonan,
Congrats on the mountain home!
If the necro town is not hostile then they will not attack you. They can become hostile AND send an invasion as letting you know though. But it normally takes an incident, like you killing some of their citizens visiting you to prompt this.
Traction and ambush do level up as you preform raids. And fighting strong enemies having a commander that is well trained will help a lot. However most goblins are rather weak and the population represented on the world map also includes the non combatant goblins in camp. A very skilled steel squad of 10 should be able to kill a 60 pop goblin encampment. (At least mine were successful a few times without losses)

1) I don't have any math breakdowns as that is a rather hard area to test. What I've experienced is that when preforming raids a more experienced tactition will find beneficial engagements and that does help win a fight. When stealing from enemies that is when ambushing seems to shine. And having steel DOES seem to help, as well skilled dorfs sent out nude (a mistake I did make) did die. To up the odds, just keep training and sending more dorfs. Dorfs die but new ones can always be trained. It's not a bad idea to start with the smaller pits and work your way up.

2) A decent built fort should never fall to goblins, so if you want you could turtle up and forget the outside world all together. That's not a bad decision, but it you want to engage with the goblins I find being offence will dwindle their numbers faster. In a single season I've killed nearly 500 goblins, that would take a couple years if I was only defending.
One "fun" part of dwarf fortress is learning those "rules" and each time we misunderstand them we get our butts whipped and learn the lesson the hardway. You should never feel bad if you make a mistake or misunderstand something, that part of the game ^-^

3) They can, but it's not likely. Factions are busy and waging war is not something they do ALL THE TIME, though it feels that way when the knife ears are mad.

4) The option of starting a new fort always is an idea. But it's not likely to give you much of an "edge" in an war. Gear and skill make a huge difference in a fight. A single steel Legendary axe dworf can kill 25 leather/copper Skilled goblins without being touched. Or the first goblin may get all the luck and drop your uberDorf. But a 60 pop goblin pit wont have 60 goblin warriors. I know I've seen only 1 defender for a 15pop pit before.

5) The world map should count diagonally in terms of "range" but I dont think it counts it as 1, as a dorf walking in fortress takes sqrt(2) time to walk diagonal and only takes 1 time to walk orthogonal

Hope this helps, and I hope half of what I say is true haha feel free to message me if you need a follow up or other questions.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Barbiz:

Hey Morkonan,
Congrats on the mountain home!
If the necro town is not hostile then they will not attack you. They can become hostile AND send an invasion as letting you know though. But it normally takes an incident, like you killing some of their citizens visiting you to prompt this.

Thanks for that! That's why I didn't convict their "Administrator" who visited of the Crimes (Conspiracy) he Confessed to... I didn't want to start an International Incident. (I was also waiting to see what the game would do, by itself. Turns out... nothing. /shrug)

Traction and ambush do level up as you preform raids. And fighting strong enemies having a commander that is well trained will help a lot. However most goblins are rather weak and the population represented on the world map also includes the non combatant goblins in camp. A very skilled steel squad of 10 should be able to kill a 60 pop goblin encampment. (At least mine were successful a few times without losses)

I know that Tactician and Ambusher help with their different Mission types, I just don't know if having both will provide benefits outside of it's specific type. So, for instance, Tactician helps the most with direct military action, but Ambush is more heavily weighted towards Raids. (According to the Wiki) Yet, it's possible that both could be components in other types of missions, just of less importance than one. (Trying to gain advantages however I can - It's going to be a very long war...)

1) I don't have any math breakdowns as that is a rather hard area to test. What I've experienced is that when preforming raids a more experienced tactition will find beneficial engagements and that does help win a fight. When stealing from enemies that is when ambushing seems to shine. And having steel DOES seem to help, as well skilled dorfs sent out nude (a mistake I did make) did die. To up the odds, just keep training and sending more dorfs. Dorfs die but new ones can always be trained. It's not a bad idea to start with the smaller pits and work your way up.

Good to know that Armor/Weapon materials help! I was going to do a naked rush, too, to test. :)

2) A decent built fort should never fall to goblins, so if you want you could turtle up and forget the outside world all together. That's not a bad decision, but it you want to engage with the goblins I find being offence will dwindle their numbers faster. In a single season I've killed nearly 500 goblins, that would take a couple years if I was only defending.
One "fun" part of dwarf fortress is learning those "rules" and each time we misunderstand them we get our butts whipped and learn the lesson the hardway. You should never feel bad if you make a mistake or misunderstand something, that part of the game ^-^

I definitely want to push an advance against them - They're getting too powerful. They could overrun the region I'm in, which is a bit further than my original Civilization. I'm the Capitol, now, though... and far from home.

3) They can, but it's not likely. Factions are busy and waging war is not something they do ALL THE TIME, though it feels that way when the knife ears are mad.

Not waging war all the time? COWARDS! :) I really wish they'd do... something. They're being raided/besieged continuously by hordes of goblins, for goodness sake.

4) The option of starting a new fort always is an idea. But it's not likely to give you much of an "edge" in an war. Gear and skill make a huge difference in a fight. A single steel Legendary axe dworf can kill 25 leather/copper Skilled goblins without being touched. Or the first goblin may get all the luck and drop your uberDorf. But a 60 pop goblin pit wont have 60 goblin warriors. I know I've seen only 1 defender for a 15pop pit before.

Very good to know - I was wondering if some hidden AI bonuses/stuff could do a better job at prosecuting a war than I could, should they choose to do so.

5) The world map should count diagonally in terms of "range" but I dont think it counts it as 1, as a dorf walking in fortress takes sqrt(2) time to walk diagonal and only takes 1 time to walk orthogonal

Hope this helps, and I hope half of what I say is true haha feel free to message me if you need a follow up or other questions.

Thanks a lot for your reply! As long as that Tower remains neutral, at least, then I have a chance of defeating the Gobbies over time. If it joins in, though... that'd be a tough issue and I might have to just retreat belowground and go into survival mode if I couldn't take it out quickly.

Thanks again, much appreciated! :)

[Barbiz]

Necro tower zombies can be tough. Two examples, both times the zombie was decent iron equiped and near Accoplished level (lv10). One zombie Killed 15 Proficient (lv5) copper drofs. One zombie killed 65 unarmed dorfs I throw at her... zombies are much more hardy then goblos, so I hope you don't have to fight the tower anytime soon ^-^

[Wesar]

In some worlds that I was, some goblin civilizations were taking a long time of humans.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Barbiz:

Necro tower zombies can be tough. Two examples, both times the zombie was decent iron equiped and near Accoplished level (lv10). One zombie Killed 15 Proficient (lv5) copper drofs. One zombie killed 65 unarmed dorfs I throw at her... zombies are much more hardy then goblos, so I hope you don't have to fight the tower anytime soon ^-^

^-- This.

My first playthrough or two was ended by a handful of Zombies showing up... They're no joke.

Originally posted by Wesar:

In some worlds that I was, some goblin civilizations were taking a long time of humans.

As I understand it, those Gobbie Snatchers will bring captives back to their civilization and they can end up in the Gobbie army. :)

[Barbiz]

That is the main job of goblo snatchers. When I went on a goblin pit killing spree, the enemies that gave me the most problems were all the "evil" dorfs they had as defenders, nearly 1/3 of the goblin pop were dorfs lol

Like 20 gobo pits and 5 dorf hillocks for them to steal from.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Barbiz:

That is the main job of goblo snatchers. When I went on a goblin pit killing spree, the enemies that gave me the most problems were all the "evil" dorfs they had as defenders, nearly 1/3 of the goblin pop were dorfs lol

Like 20 gobo pits and 5 dorf hillocks for them to steal from.

I've waited a bit too long, I think, so I'm definitely worried about them having some slave/indoctrinated defenders like that.