Dwarf personalities are placebo?

[Multihog]

Look at the supposed personalities of the dwarves. What effect do these *really* have? Not only do they quite clearly have no gameplay, or apparent behavioral, effect at all, it doesn't seem like the system is even consistent with itself in a vacuum.

For example, you can have a "patient" dwarf who "values tranquility" who nevertheless has multiple instances of getting major satisfaction out of getting into an argument and yelling at someone in charge. This whole thing feels like a meaningless post-hoc layer inserted over the city builder that doesn't have any real impact on anything—and it fails to even make sense when considered on its own. I'm not expecting it to be The Sims, but how is one supposed to get attached to these dwarves at all when it is quite obvious that they are in fact not different from each other?

[Hedede]

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Originally posted by Multihog:

What I want is a fantasy ant farm. I'm just asking that the supposed personality traits actually have some perceptible effect in the simulation.

At the moment their impact seems so minuscule that it may as well not be there.

They are there. Everything they do is based off their personalities. There is no "impact". Each dwarf is unique. All you can see is "A sturdy creature fond of drink and industry." I guarantee you haven't even scratched the surface of this game if you believe what you're saying. Play a fort for a decade or two, if you can survive that long.

They are there, but do they work? I remember personalities made a much bigger impact in older versions.

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

Originally posted by Multihog:

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

They are there. Everything they do is based off their personalities. There is no "impact". Each dwarf is unique. All you can see is "A sturdy creature fond of drink and industry." I guarantee you haven't even scratched the surface of this game if you believe what you're saying. Play a fort for a decade or two, if you can survive that long.

If it takes a decade to spot this supposed individuality in the dwarves, that does nothing but prove my point. It should be readily observed by locking the camera onto a dwarf and following them around for a few in-game days. If there is nothing detectable that lines up with the dwarf's personality description, then your system is weak. And that's exactly what I've experienced with this.

Cool. Go play something else. Like I said, people played this with ASCII graphics for years. There's a reason. If you don't get it, you don't get it. lol why would I bother arguing with you. Dwarf Fortress will live on without your presence.

[Multihog]

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Originally posted by Multihog:

If it takes a decade to spot this supposed individuality in the dwarves, that does nothing but prove my point. It should be readily observed by locking the camera onto a dwarf and following them around for a few in-game days. If there is nothing detectable that lines up with the dwarf's personality description, then your system is weak. And that's exactly what I've experienced with this.

Cool. Go play something else. Like I said, people played this with ASCII graphics for years. There's a reason. If you don't get it, you don't get it. lol why would I bother arguing with you. Dwarf Fortress will live on without your presence.

I'm doing a public service here by dispelling some of the exaggerations of the fanboy cult around this game. I'm not going anywhere. I know there is always heavy resistance when something critical is said about a game that has a large collection of fanboys.

[Hedede]

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Originally posted by Multihog:

If it takes a decade to spot this supposed individuality in the dwarves, that does nothing but prove my point. It should be readily observed by locking the camera onto a dwarf and following them around for a few in-game days. If there is nothing detectable that lines up with the dwarf's personality description, then your system is weak. And that's exactly what I've experienced with this.

Cool. Go play something else. Like I said, people played this with ASCII graphics for years. There's a reason. If you don't get it, you don't get it. lol why would I bother arguing with you. Dwarf Fortress will live on without your presence.

Can we please stop arguing with the OP and focus on the actual issue?

[Multihog]

Originally posted by Hedede:

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Cool. Go play something else. Like I said, people played this with ASCII graphics for years. There's a reason. If you don't get it, you don't get it. lol why would I bother arguing with you. Dwarf Fortress will live on without your presence.

Can we please stop arguing with the OP and focus on the actual issue?

It's always the same thing. People take it personally when something they like is criticized. That's the issue with fanboys. It's like the game becomes part of their identity.

[Alexandyr]

Originally posted by Multihog:

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

Cool. Go play something else. Like I said, people played this with ASCII graphics for years. There's a reason. If you don't get it, you don't get it. lol why would I bother arguing with you. Dwarf Fortress will live on without your presence.

I'm doing a public service here by dispelling some of the exaggerations of the fanboy cult around this game. I'm not going anywhere. I know there is always heavy resistance when something critical is said about a game that has a large collection of fanboys.

FIrst of all, I'd like to thank you for you service. Do you have a Patreon or something I can donate to?

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

But to call it a placebo is ridiculous.

Just got done digging out a well/aquaduct system. Finally have the "pipes" all set up and have thrown the switches. The water is flowing fast and I'm testing the drainage pipe, following the water as it gushes toward the cave system where it will empty. But what's this? A dwarf is in the drainage pipe. He isn't a miner! What is he doing there and why didn't he leave with everyone else?

I check his stats: Bad Analytical Ability. Horrible intelligence. The water hits him in a torrent and he's flung out of into the 7/7 water of the underground cave. He crawls to shore and stands there, stunned. He can't find his way back to the ground level door, even though I've unlocked it. After a time, a dwarven child comes down the beach and takes him back to the door, showing him the way.

Another.

I have an axe dwarf who slayed a giant. I'm wondering why he is just standing there after the rest of the militia have returned to the fort to eat, drink, etc. He stands there for a long time. I check his health. He's fine. No injuries. Why is he just standing there over the corpse of the slain giant? I check his stats. Stoic.

You will NEVER get this kind of behavior in Rimworld or any other game. This is what dwarf fortress is. It's not about traits making npcs act predictably. It's about them taking on a life of their own.

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

Call me a "fanboy" all you want. You're right. I am a fan boy. Why else would I be here? Haha.

You just don't get it. And that's fine. This game is not for everyone. It certainly isn't for you. Go play something else where you click a button and everything happens just how you'd expect.

Dwarf Fortress will live on without you.

[Multihog]

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

But to call it a placebo is ridiculous.

Just got done digging out a well/aquaduct system. Finally have the "pipes" all set up and have thrown the switches. The water is flowing fast and I'm testing the drainage pipe, following the water as it gushes toward the cave system where it will empty. But what's this? A dwarf is in the drainage pipe. He isn't a miner! What is he doing there and why didn't he leave with everyone else?

I check his stats: Bad Analytical Ability. Horrible intelligence. The water hits him in a torrent and he's flung out of into the 7/7 water of the underground cave. He crawls to shore and stands there, stunned. He can't find his way back to the ground level door, even though I've unlocked it. After a time, a dwarven child comes down the beach and takes him back to the door, showing him the way.

Another.

I have an axe dwarf who slayed a giant. I'm wondering why he is just standing there after the rest of the militia have returned to the fort to eat, drink, etc. He stands there for a long time. I check his health. He's fine. No injuries. Why is he just standing there over the corpse of the slain giant? I check his stats. Stoic.

You will NEVER get this kind of behavior in Rimworld or any other game. This is what dwarf fortress is. It's not about traits making npcs act predictably. It's about them taking on a life of their own.

Those are actually good examples of potential placebo. In both of the cases, there's a very good change those are correlation without any causation. I would bet it's the AI bugging out or some other AI quirk causing those, which might just as well happened with any other dwarf in the place of those.

Why would a "stoic" dwarf just stand over a dead corpse? You'd expect the opposite. A stoic dwarf would care even less than the average about the dead giant due to having better control of their emotions.

This is the kind of stuff that makes people think like the system does amazing things when I believe in reality it doesn't do almost anything in most cases.

The fact that there are frequent contradictions like this:

And I noticed that in the current version needs sometimes don't match up with personalities. I think the whole thing might be broken? I had a dwarf who didn't care about family being constantly unhappy about being away from the family even though he didn't *even have* family, so I had to expel him before he throws a tantrum.

leads me to believe it doesn't do anything most of the time. I saw this CONSTANTLY. A dwarf supposedly hates X or likes Y, yet their log is full of contradicting effects to mood.

The cruelest, most obnoxious, antisocial dwarf? No problem, drinking in the tavern, having intellectual conversations just like every other. You can follow him for 20 years and never see him get in any bar fight. And so on.

[Nathan the Dwarven Shark]

Originally posted by The Vanguard:

I don't see the point in this argument, neither side is going to capitulate and we'll get another 15 page thread of flame wars and back and forth trolling.

Currently 11 pages, getting there slowly!

[Grimmrog_SIG]

Originally posted by Multihog:

Originally posted by Hedede:

Can we please stop arguing with the OP and focus on the actual issue?

It's always the same thing. People take it personally when something they like is criticized. That's the issue with fanboys. It's like the game becomes part of their identity.

it's not a placebo it is just not as BIG and omnipresent as you want it to be. And while this does not affect the game on each dwarfs daily Life it does in small dozes over a long time. And thats what matters.

[Hedede]

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

But to call it a placebo is ridiculous.

Just got done digging out a well/aquaduct system. Finally have the "pipes" all set up and have thrown the switches. The water is flowing fast and I'm testing the drainage pipe, following the water as it gushes toward the cave system where it will empty. But what's this? A dwarf is in the drainage pipe. He isn't a miner! What is he doing there and why didn't he leave with everyone else?

I check his stats: Bad Analytical Ability. Horrible intelligence. The water hits him in a torrent and he's flung out of into the 7/7 water of the underground cave. He crawls to shore and stands there, stunned. He can't find his way back to the ground level door, even though I've unlocked it. After a time, a dwarven child comes down the beach and takes him back to the door, showing him the way.

I don't think attributes actually influence the dwarf behavior. They affect skills, how fast dwarves do things, quality of the things they make and also combat.

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

Originally posted by Multihog:

Originally posted by Simonson 29th ID:

But to call it a placebo is ridiculous.

Just got done digging out a well/aquaduct system. Finally have the "pipes" all set up and have thrown the switches. The water is flowing fast and I'm testing the drainage pipe, following the water as it gushes toward the cave system where it will empty. But what's this? A dwarf is in the drainage pipe. He isn't a miner! What is he doing there and why didn't he leave with everyone else?

I check his stats: Bad Analytical Ability. Horrible intelligence. The water hits him in a torrent and he's flung out of into the 7/7 water of the underground cave. He crawls to shore and stands there, stunned. He can't find his way back to the ground level door, even though I've unlocked it. After a time, a dwarven child comes down the beach and takes him back to the door, showing him the way.

Another.

I have an axe dwarf who slayed a giant. I'm wondering why he is just standing there after the rest of the militia have returned to the fort to eat, drink, etc. He stands there for a long time. I check his health. He's fine. No injuries. Why is he just standing there over the corpse of the slain giant? I check his stats. Stoic.

You will NEVER get this kind of behavior in Rimworld or any other game. This is what dwarf fortress is. It's not about traits making npcs act predictably. It's about them taking on a life of their own.

Those are actually good examples of potential placebo. In both of the cases, there's a very good change those are correlation without any causation. I would bet it's the AI bugging out or some other AI quirk causing those, which might just as well happened with any other dwarf in the place of those.

Why would a "stoic" dwarf just stand over a dead corpse? You'd expect the opposite. A stoic dwarf would care even less than the average about the dead giant due to having better control of their emotions.

This is the kind of stuff that makes people think like the system does amazing things when I believe in reality it doesn't do almost anything in most cases.

The fact that there are frequent contradictions like this:

And I noticed that in the current version needs sometimes don't match up with personalities. I think the whole thing might be broken? I had a dwarf who didn't care about family being constantly unhappy about being away from the family even though he didn't *even have* family, so I had to expel him before he throws a tantrum.

leads me to believe it doesn't do anything most of the time. I saw this CONSTANTLY. A dwarf supposedly hates X or likes Y, yet their log is full of contradicting effects to mood.

The cruelest, most obnoxious, antisocial dwarf? No problem, drinking in the tavern, having intellectual conversations just like every other. You can follow him for 20 years and never see him get in any bar fight. And so on.

"Stoic" doesn't mean you don't care about things. Your understanding of the word is as shallow as your understanding of this game.

Once again, you are looking for direct cause and effect, which is a hallmark of simplicity, not complexity. For some reason this escapes you and you somehow believe that 20 years of development is a "placebo" as if there is nothing there.

Since I'm barely even reading your responses I suppose this is a good time to unsub. lol

[MintiM]

Personalities are relatively new (they released like what, 4-5 years ago? I don't remember that well) and so is the adventure mode dialogue system, so I imagine it's going to be a lot more fleshed out eventually

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

And for the record, name any other game where anything like the above could or has happened.

Stuff like that never happens in any other game. It's all predictable. Everything is a series of a=b responses. That's why this game is great.