Dwarf personalities are placebo?

[Multihog]

Look at the supposed personalities of the dwarves. What effect do these *really* have? Not only do they quite clearly have no gameplay, or apparent behavioral, effect at all, it doesn't seem like the system is even consistent with itself in a vacuum.

For example, you can have a "patient" dwarf who "values tranquility" who nevertheless has multiple instances of getting major satisfaction out of getting into an argument and yelling at someone in charge. This whole thing feels like a meaningless post-hoc layer inserted over the city builder that doesn't have any real impact on anything—and it fails to even make sense when considered on its own. I'm not expecting it to be The Sims, but how is one supposed to get attached to these dwarves at all when it is quite obvious that they are in fact not different from each other?

[OldManBanjo]

I feel that since they made emotional death spirals less frequent they do not matter quite as much as they used to. They definitely do matter though - I've had fortresses die due to personality clashes.

Also, the 'getting satisfaction from yelling' is a particular mechanic for stress release, I don't think its necessarily a contradiction. I think I value tranquillity - doesn't stop me occasionally having a go at a colleague if they screw something up.

[Potemps66]

they matter - everything in this game is connected, so even if it doesnt have very bit impact it still have it.

[Multihog]

Originally posted by OldManBanjo:

I feel that since they made emotional death spirals less frequent they do not matter quite as much as they used to. They definitely do matter though - I've had fortresses die due to personality clashes.

Also, the 'getting satisfaction from yelling' is a particular mechanic for stress release, I don't think its necessarily a contradiction. I think I value tranquillity - doesn't stop me occasionally having a go at a colleague if they screw something up.

I've been keeping an eye on the logs because I'm particularly into this kind of thing—virtual entities interacting independently—and I have to say I haven't been able to establish any kind of pattern between the list of traits and dwarf behavior in the "thoughts" and "memories" sections.

Why is my "shameless" and "cruel" dwarf not engaging in fights, for example? In fact, there hasn't been even a single criminal case, and I'm at the stage where the population has been maxed out for many years. This "cruel" dwarf in fact has a history log indistinguishable from any other dwarf, just like everyone else. I feel like these traits actually have very little code behind them based on their utter lack of impact on anything, even the "thoughts" system.

I feel like this whole layer is frankly bullcrap and fake complexity.

[McFuzz]

I've seen cowardly dwarves run away from conflict, and brave dwarfs run towards it. At the very least, that's something. Their values dictates which of their moods go up and down; one who values crafts will want to make crafts, and one who does not, will not. The white emotions are much subtler, and I can't blame you for thinking they don't do anything.

Also seems harsh to judge something that isn't finished. The framework's done. But dwarf fortress is version 0.50 and not 1.0 for a reason.

[⎛⎝Tiùwilo⎠⎞]

Personality affects social stuff, which rarely happens or has an effect unless your dwarves have way too much time on their hands. Sometimes it can lead to fights, but it's rare.

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait

Here are some effects, like the fact that they can't learn certain social skills if their personality is against it.

[[MadTs] Phyrys]

Originally posted by Multihog:

Originally posted by OldManBanjo:

I feel that since they made emotional death spirals less frequent they do not matter quite as much as they used to. They definitely do matter though - I've had fortresses die due to personality clashes.

Also, the 'getting satisfaction from yelling' is a particular mechanic for stress release, I don't think its necessarily a contradiction. I think I value tranquillity - doesn't stop me occasionally having a go at a colleague if they screw something up.

I've been keeping an eye on the logs because I'm particularly into this kind of thing—virtual entities interacting independently—and I have to say I haven't been able to establish any kind of pattern between the list of traits and dwarf behavior in the "thoughts" and "memories" sections.

Why is my "shameless" and "cruel" dwarf not engaging in fights, for example? In fact, there hasn't been even a single criminal case, and I'm at the stage where the population has been maxed out for many years. This "cruel" dwarf in fact has a history log indistinguishable from any other dwarf, just like everyone else. I feel like these traits actually have very little code behind them based on their utter lack of impact on anything, even the "thoughts" system.

I feel like this whole layer is frankly bullcrap and fake complexity.

If his mood drop low enough (and it will certainly do it if it doesn't have a fight often), you'll most certainly notice that it'll tantrum all day long and probably kill dwarfs and dogs in first grade assault.

Gamewise, it'll be : Unmet need (fight) > dwelling into this need way too often since it'll have a high percentage of checking > stacking stress > relevant stress reaction trait ? Yes : Cruel/wrathful > Tantrum.

Dwarf die and rise as ghost : Personnality check. Relevant trait : Cruel. Rise as cruel ghost : Murders dwarfs instead of haunting them.

[⎛⎝Tiùwilo⎠⎞]

Of course even if it is possible for dwarves to always have violent breaks or get into fights easily, if they're already too happy from chowing their favorite food and drink in a legendary dining hall filled with grand master entertainers, they just lack the stress to snap.

I found that social fights happen most often between highly talented scholars and others, which leads me to believe that if someone has the ability to challenge or outright change another's personality through rhetoric, it might provoke a heftier reaction.

Been a while since I've done this in adventure mode, but you can annoy people to breaking point by constantly picking extremely controversial topics and opinions, so it's not a completely dud system, it's just really subtle, slow and heavily RNG dependent.

[Multihog]

Originally posted by Frank McFuzz:

I've seen cowardly dwarves run away from conflict, and brave dwarfs run towards it. At the very least, that's something. Their values dictates which of their moods go up and down; one who values crafts will want to make crafts, and one who does not, will not. The white emotions are much subtler, and I can't blame you for thinking they don't do anything.

This is all very "in theory." If you actually open the game and see what it spits out, it's all seemingly random and inconsistent. If you have a system this invisible, then it might as well not exist at all.

I think this is important to bring up because people keep saying stuff like "yeah, the game simulates hundreds of dwarves with all their own histories, preferences, ambitions, etc." Well, no, not really. What we're really speaking of is a system so weak as to be imperceptible, even if you go looking for it, like I did.

Also seems harsh to judge something that isn't finished. The framework's done. But dwarf fortress is version 0.50 and not 1.0 for a reason.

Sure, but this is also a game that has been in development for two decades. Alright, the system is underdeveloped, but let's at least start seeing this system as what it is: a pretty frontend that promises lots of complexity, with little backend and actual return.

Originally posted by MadTs Phyrys:

If his mood drop low enough (and it will certainly do it if it doesn't have a fight often), you'll most certainly notice that it'll tantrum all day long and probably kill dwarfs and dogs in first grade assault.

Maybe? The problem with that is that it's next to impossible to have a tantrum in this game—except berserk due to a failed mysterious mood a few times—because it's so easy to keep your population satisfied. I've gone two 15-hour forts and haven't seen a single tantrum. And that guy hasn't been in fights; at least I've never seen it in his logs.

[McFuzz]

Originally posted by Multihog:

If you have a system this invisible, then it might as well not exist at all..

Yeah well... It does exist. I dunno what you're asking here, for it to be taken out? lol.
It's a detail thing. It's not like it's intended to be a core gameplay mechanic, but to make the dwarves act more realistically. And yes... it's still in development, and will be for the majority of our human lifespans.

Originally posted by Multihog:

Sure, but this is also a game that has been in development for two decades. Alright, the system is underdeveloped, but let's at least start seeing it as what it is: a pretty frontend that promises lots of complexity, with little backend and actual return.

Yes. But he didn't spend two decades specifically on the mood system. And it's not that it's underdeveloped, but that it keeps going through changes and iterations as development continues. I've watched it for a long time. Dwarves behave much more rationally now than they did with Rimworld's binary pawn system.

The mood system allows depressive dwarves, or dwarves who have experienced trauma, to still get sad, even if you have a nice statue in the dining hall. You can say it doesn't exist, that's fine, that's your opinion. It does. It's just subtle. It's supposed to be.

How ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ obnoxious would it be if your cruel dwarves regularly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things up for people around them. Or your depressed dwarves killed themselves without melancholy. Or your shameless dwarves running around naked and insulting people all day and making everyone lose their ♥♥♥♥. The only strategy would be to evict these idiots the instant they appeared on map. Obnoxious. The entire game would become managing hyper-aggressive personality tendencies. It would make the game unplayable. Having extremely overt personality traits would be like having a permanent tantrum spiral, especially with 200 dwarves.

[accent]

I think it's mostly flavor text, not all of it needs to actually have an effect. Just something to flesh the characters out more. It still helps to form a story in your head. Same as the physical description of the dwarves. It's a game where you have to use your imagination a lot and these things just help with that.

[McFuzz]

Originally posted by accent:

I think it's mostly flavor text, not all of it needs to actually have an effect. Just something to flesh the characters out more. It still helps to form a story in your head. Same as the physical description of the dwarves. It's a game where you have to use your imagination a lot and these things just help with that.

Pretty much this. They do have effects outside of LARPing - It's just not much! The most is that it makes one of two different needs appear per dwarf, and you can come up with stories about them lol. They might have different kinds of mental breaks or different ghosts. And that's really it. That's really the answer.

[Alexandyr]

Traits and attributes do indeed matter. If you're interested in the concrete details,

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Attribute

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait

[Multihog]

Originally posted by Frank McFuzz:

Yeah well... It does exist. I dunno what you're asking here, for it to be taken out? lol.
It's a detail thing. It's not like it's intended to be a core gameplay mechanic, but to make the dwarves act more realistically. And yes... it's still in development, and will be for the majority of our human lifespans.

No, I'm asking it to be a little more than words in a UI box.

Yes. But he didn't spend two decades specifically on the mood system. And it's not that it's underdeveloped, but that it keeps going through changes and iterations as development continues. I've watched it for a long time. Dwarves behave much more rationally now than they did with Rimworld's binary pawn system.

They behave rationally, like obedient bots in a city builder, yes. But they are not interesting as virtual entities.

How ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ obnoxious would it be if your cruel dwarves regularly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things up for people around them. Or your depressed dwarves killed themselves without melancholy. Or your shameless dwarves running around naked and insulting people all day and making everyone lose their ♥♥♥♥. The only strategy would be to evict these idiots the instant they appeared on map. Obnoxious. The entire game would become managing hyper-aggressive personality tendencies. It would make the game unplayable. Having extremely overt personality traits would be like having a permanent tantrum spiral, especially with 200 dwarves.

First of all, this game is supposedly as much a "story generator" (or more so) as it is a nice and convenient city builder. These idiosyncracies manifesting themselves overtly would do wonders for this so-called "story generation."

Second, the game is very easy to manage. I was able to go AFK for 20 minutes or so and come back with my fortress still running like I left it. There's a lot of slack in the game, and dwarf behavior throwing a monkey wrench in here and there wouldn't be an issue, really. It would in any case be taken care of automatically by your law enforcement (in the case of criminality.)

[Imagine Wagons]

I don't think you are raising fortress full of sociopaths that are going to drop everything they do just to indulge in fights. Even in functioning society people who are prone to violence and are cruel just don't go out of their way to ♥♥♥♥ up random people day just because they are like that. I don't think it would made compelling narrative if dwarves in very good mood just went out of their way to assault people. Keep their mood low enough and they will start getting into fights. My dungeon has four dwarves in 180pop colony that decided they want to have a swing at other people, and all 4 were pretty miserable. Deny people temples, inns, sell all instruments, keep your dining hall as ♥♥♥♥♥♥ as possible, remove guild halls, rebude and watch your dwarves getting depressed and starting moping around. That's when their personality traits start coming in full swing, since some will get much better than anyone, and some will start making trouble.

The memories system is sort of fuzzy for me, since it's been a while when I played classic, but it's sort of system that makes harder for extreme mood swings to happen. Like a dwarf with depressing memories will have harder time to stay ecstatic until he will experience good times to overwrite old memories. It would be hard for someone who lost everyone they loved to be extremely happy for seeing mastercrafted dining table.

[TFTEnthusiast]

I don't see the point in this argument, neither side is going to capitulate and we'll get another 15 page thread of flame wars and back and forth trolling.