Do we belong here or not?

[The Former]

This forum has quickly split into two broad categories: The new players who love this version, and the old players who despise half of it. Neither of these categories are absolute, of course, but broadly speaking, this is the way of it.

As a new player, I feel increasingly like I don't deserve a seat at the table. I was already intimidated by the sheer age of this community. You all have carried this game on your shoulders for 20 years, and here's me, too scared to touch the classic version, suddenly scooting in and trying to keep up.

But the way a lot of you vets are lashing out anytime we try to say we like how something is done... It goes beyond that. I start getting the sense that you don't want us here at all. That because you've been here all this time, this version should cater to you and you alone, and our stupid nascent notions of things being fine as they are should get buried in favor of the old guard's demands for the way of the classic version.

And you know what? There's merit in that. It's been your game all this time. You've helped shape it. Like I said, I kinda felt like I might not have a place in this venerable community to begin with. If this is just my suspicions being proven right, I've got no issue with that.

I just want to know. I don't wanna waste your time with my stupid ideas if newbies like me don't belong in this community. I'll pack up and await a community full of newbies if the gatekeepers don't want us in, and I won't hold any ill will either. You've been around long enough that you deserve to make that call.

Just state it clearly, please, so we can get out of your hair.

[Infinite Being]

Nah, the free version hasn't gone anywhere, and Toady said it won't be going anywhere. If you want to play this version of the game, keep playing it. The "Old Guard" critique is more a case of fans being disappointed over having paid for a cut-down version of the game that's less efficient to play, so we're voicing our concerns so that, hopefully, this version will be improved.

But if the less-efficient gameplay is what helps you get started on figuring this game out, I'm in favor of it. Just know that it's ultimately a lesser version than the old ASCII version at the moment. For example, the lack of Adventure Mode is a huge drawback, since that's half the game that's... missing. But the good thing is that, if you ever feel inclined, going back to the ASCII version is still possible. It will take some readjusting, since the UI and visuals are completely different, but the gameplay is more-or-less the same.

[Wee Fud]

I've been playing for over a decade now and I'm very pleased to see new people playing and getting interested in Dwarf Fortress. People will always grumble if they change something they liked but I think everyone agrees the old interface was incredibly clunky and this new version is a step in the right direction, even if it still needs some more work. Everyone should be in the same place we all started learning at some point and if the newbies are all somewhere else who are they going to ask?

[MadAsgardian]

You paid your money as much as the next dwarf, post away.

[Rever]

You seem to want to contribute, so do it however you like. If someone doesn't like it that truly is their issue, not yours. Just do your thing. What other people think doesn't matter, unless the devs or steam ban you.

[Argenstein]

Well we all started this game once and I had to relearn it each time when i once or twice a year played it for some weeks/months. So why should you feel bad?

About the versions, i might switch back to the old one maybe. But as far as i see they both have advantages.

Again: we all started once and it is a brilliant game. Welcome onboard

[EkkiThump]

No, come on in. Most of us Old Guards were Urist-come-latelys too once. I'm Newer Old Guard, we already had z levels when I started.

[76561197966020268]

I guess not. Bye

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Please don't over-generalize. I'm an old player that donated graciously when I was stationed in Germany and deployed in Iraq for all the enjoyment this game gave me out there when I had nothing else to do. I'm a very old player.

I can see that he's trying new things. Nothing should stop someone from trying new things to see if they're better. However, at the same time, if those new things, once working as intended don't work well, one should not be so beholden to them that they blind themselves to what they have done. Right now, the new features I don't think work as intended completely. I'm going to be patient and see how they work once they've been repaired.

I've found numerous bugs with the system that make it seem like I don't know what I'm doing with the new system, and I feel that it's exacerbating the situation. E.g. Carpenters are supposed to build wooden structures, Masons build stone structures, and Metalcrafters/Blacksmiths build metal structures, but in the case of a jewelers worshop, you need both the construction skill and jewelcrafting for some reason active to build it. This has to be a bug since it's the only one like that as far as I can tell.

If they can add more feedback in the game for how things work, e.g. the task list giving you what labors are required to perform this task, rather than just sitting there unworked while dwarves sit idle unhelpfully, we could more easily learn how to work with this system and have a more educated opinion of it. If the game gave more feedback to why it's making decisions so players can operate the controls more effectively, then the system would suddenly become more useful.

As it sits, I hear constant toxic opinions from one side though, "The game is trying to take away the micromanagement from the player." The problem is that the game is doing so at the expense of taking control from the player. I don't mind if the game would take micromanagement from me while leaving me with the same level of control over the civilization, but that's not how it currently feels. The control may be there, but if it exists, it's buried under a ton of obfuscation, which means that rather than micromanaging a pile of dwarfs, I'm instead micromanaging a pile of menus to try to regain control.

[LolotovCocktail]

As someone who's been playing on and off for a couple of decades, I say gatekeeping is cringe. This is a new era for the game and I'm glad new people are here to share their input. The game badly needed this change in order to stay relevant, and The Great Toady One deserves payment for all the cool experiences he's given us.
If anyone is making you feel unwelcome due to being new, I'll punch them in a video game

[Instigator]

Gatekeeping is cringe, and so is generalizing.

The community belongs to the community, but there's no need for theatrics.

The vitriolic people are best ignored rather than given such a grand spot at the table as this post does. Ignore them and let them wallow.

[Excellion]

I can only say: It's a random forum on the internet.

Some folks will be happy to chat about a game they like, offer suggestions or assist new players. Other folks are just around to troll or push their opinion without regards for even basic social etiquette.

In the end there is no "Group" as much as there is a bunch of individual people with their own thoughts and opinions. And just like on any forum, you can just ignore or block folks that rub you the wrong way. They will always be there, courtesy to all of us commenting anonymously with no repercussions for uncivil behaviour.

Just speaking for myself: I like to see new people play and enjoy Dwarf Fortress, and i try to give assistance and advice if i believe i can offer something useful. And just ignore any discussions that are the written variant of a shouting match entirely. (There are better ways to spend ones time than to argue on the internet after all).

[mirko]

I have been playing the old version on and off for about 10 years and I find this new version fantastic. There are some things that need to be improved upon but I would think anyone who's played DF for any amount of time would understand it's a constant WIP and the dev has more than proven he is dedicated to this game. It's only going to get better from here folks.

[PaulAzure]

The young Urist's hands are still soft for lack of swinging the pick over the decades.
In time, the young Urist will learn that no amount of pick-swinging will truly change the mountain, nor will it stop grumpy old longbeards from grumbling and complaining.
Swing away then, the grumblings and mutterings of these old goats notwithstanding. ;)

[Bralbaard]

There's definitely no reason why newbies don't belong in the community. The only division I can think of is that the old fanbase is mostly on reddit and the bay12 forums, and all the new people are on the forums here. I hope it will mix eventually, the bay12 forums seem to be a bit more conveniently categorized per subject.

Now that I'm talking about it, let me take this opportunity to plug the official dwarf fortress forums[www.bay12forums.com] over at bay12.
There's plenty of information there on the game and it is one of the most friendly communities I know. As far as I can tell most of the old guard enjoy the new version, and defintely don't despise half of it.

Also definitely check out the community games and stories section where "multiplayer" DF games are organised. Basically games where multiple people play the same fortress in succession. Some of the greatest dwarf fortress stories were born there. Traffic has been a bit slow despite the release, mainly because the servers initially crashed due to all the traffic.