Soo uhh, where's all the "complexity"?

[Murderer Drug Dealer]

All I see is needless detail that exists, but adds literally nothing to the gameplay. I don't care that the goblin village 2 days away from me is fully simulated with agents, I can't see it and it doesn't affect me in any way. I don't care that Urist's right hand got chopped off, he picked it up and killed the werebeast with it, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay because the outcome is still the same - he killed the werebeast.

The actual complexity of the gameplay and managing a dwarf society doesn't exceed that of SimCity (or more seriously, some 4X games like Aurora4X, or even Civ 4). People mistake complexity (needless details with no real depth) with difficulty. It's difficult because there are a lot of things to know, and the UI is ♥♥♥♥ so you're stuck with reading the wiki or let's play videos.

All of the needless detail (hurr durr all beats are unique) really doesn't matter because it adds very little to the gameplay. All of the 'details' can be easily abstracted away and the game would still be the same, your combat log and legends would just not be there. But legends and combat log aren't complexity, they're simply narration.

[Ashling]

Originally posted by katanaofsubterfuge:

The devs are going to have to add actual gameplay mechanics in their twilight years when they are half senile.

What game play mechanics would you like to see added? I'd personally like indepth non-dwarf led settlements to be playable, but considering the name of the series and adventure mode kinda taking its place already I don't think that's gonna come.

[Murderer Drug Dealer]

Originally posted by Kaptain_Kabul:

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

I guess I tried. In my defence, Dostoyevsky himself wouldn't be able to write a good enough metaphor to explain how complex insides don't equal to complex final product in order to get it through your thick skull.

Sick burn!

Thx bro, I literally thought my burn is like the explosion of the deathstar and I thought of it when mysteriously ogling at my funko pop collection.

[Snake Bit]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

...
So you are arguing about something you know nothing about? Play 100 hours (like me, I'm practically an expert on this topic) and then come back.

Obviously, I know enough to present a counter to whatever argument, if one can call it such, that you are putting forward.

How about addressing the statements made rather than uselessly insulting the one that made them? If you're an expert on this particular topic, I'm the Emperor of Malta.

Why is it that you're just so very insulting? Teh Internetz? I wan't trying to insult you, but you've replied with an adolescent vengeance that's makes it really not worth my time discussing this with you. Have a nice day.

PS: If you're somehow embodying me as some "generic DF "fanboi"" you've got the wrong guy you're trying to reply to.

You're the king of Malta? How?! I WATCHED YOU DIE! THE OTTOMANS! HOW?!

[Murderer Drug Dealer]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

...
So you are arguing about something you know nothing about? Play 100 hours (like me, I'm practically an expert on this topic) and then come back.

Obviously, I know enough to present a counter to whatever argument, if one can call it such, that you are putting forward.

How about addressing the statements made rather than uselessly insulting the one that made them? If you're an expert on this particular topic, I'm the Emperor of Malta.

Why is it that you're just so very insulting? Teh Internetz? I wan't trying to insult you, but you've replied with an adolescent vengeance that's makes it really not worth my time discussing this with you. Have a nice day.

PS: If you're somehow embodying me as some "generic DF "fanboi"" you've got the wrong guy you're trying to reply to.

Your argument is built on false conceptions and is a straw man.

No matter how sturdy a building is erected, if the foundation is faulty then the building is still weak. - Buddha

[Nevermore]

Originally posted by Government-Cheese:

I prefer to recommend something heavy and mind melting. Like Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self by Carl Jung and Ordinary Men By Christopher Browning and Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E Frankl.

>Jung
lol dropped

[Prismatic Platypus]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Originally posted by Prismatic Platypus:

Please, do go on...

No, it's your turn. I volunteered you, everyone is watching, don't make us think you're a boring, joy killing, "Don't tell Prismatic we're having this party ans I don't want him here because he's a loser" person.

Tell us more...

[Murderer Drug Dealer]

Alright guys, the weed wore off. It was fun chatting.

DF still sucks.

[Snake Bit]

Originally posted by Nevermore:

Originally posted by Government-Cheese:

I prefer to recommend something heavy and mind melting. Like Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self by Carl Jung and Ordinary Men By Christopher Browning and Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E Frankl.

>Jung
lol dropped

Not my fault you can't appreciate good mind bending literature.

[Multihog]

Whether the detail is needless is subjective because for some people it adds a lot. Other than that, I think you're quite right. The game isn't really complex when it comes to the actual gameplay.

[Nevermore]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Originally posted by Morkonan:

This game is not terribly "complex."

However, where you are really "wrong" is making comparisons based upon some ideal definition of "complexity" that really doesn't have much to do with gameplay in any game.

DF's "complexity" is in emergent gameplay.

It's purpose-designed to do that very thing and designed to do it a bit more... darn broadly.. than most other games. That's why you interpret the text, for example, the way you do, but do not see what is actually being done with that in terms of "gameplay." It's simple things combining together to produce something "new."

I'm not an apologist for DF. I have no dog in this fight... And, I am not lauding "complexity" or "emergent" gameplay as the end-all, be-all, gameplay solution like some may do.

I'm simply pointing out that what you are criticizing doesn't really have much of anything to do with "gameplay" at all.

DF is about emergent gameplay. It's about a game that has a set of conditions that, as a component, are unpredictable. It's a world that "nobody knows" that gets generated. (Seeds being a bit different) Everything that comprises the "gameplay loop" is relatively similar, but what impacts that drastically is DF's emergent gameplay and variable elements that the game can combine to present truly novel situations.

That isn't "complexity." A kid's toybox may look "complex" because it's disorganized. But, it's really simple - It has toys in it, most covered by unidentifiable coatings, and some old french-fries at the bottom. You can't get much simpler than that. Mash those altogether, though, and demand the kid play with them... Well, then you get "emergent gameplay" that can be delightfully unpredictable.

Note: The "text" you referred to with random variables bunched in... That's not just random text being shoved in there - Those words will develop much more meaning over time and will accumulate qualities specific to the world the player is about to enter and will have connections to significant NPCs and places and historical figures and religions and... everything else that makes up that new world. Don't oversimplify your analysis of a lack of complexity... :)

PS: All that being said, there's no reason why you should be forced to enjoy or even like it at all. That's fine. Congrats, you avoided trying to force yourself to play it! "Songs of Syx" is a great game, btw. BUT, if you're looking for "complexity" there you're not going to find it. You WILL find what I think is very enjoyable gameplay, though. (If you want "complexity" recommends, I might be able to dig some up.)

>Note: The "text" you referred to with random variables bunched in... That's not just random text being shoved in there - Those words will develop much more meaning over time and will accumulate qualities specific to the world the player is about to enter and will have connections to significant NPCs and places and historical figures and religions and... everything else that makes up that new world. Don't oversimplify your analysis of a lack of complexity... :)

Yes, I know this perfectly well if you couldn't gather. Although it makes sense it didn't gather for you, as previously mentioned: All DF enjoyers are dimwits. It's still not complex, go play AI dungeon instead if you want real story complexity.

> AI dungeon
that ♥♥♥♥ can't even remember the last 5 lines of its own "history"

[McFuzz]

Originally posted by Nevermore:

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

>Note: The "text" you referred to with random variables bunched in... That's not just random text being shoved in there - Those words will develop much more meaning over time and will accumulate qualities specific to the world the player is about to enter and will have connections to significant NPCs and places and historical figures and religions and... everything else that makes up that new world. Don't oversimplify your analysis of a lack of complexity... :)

Yes, I know this perfectly well if you couldn't gather. Although it makes sense it didn't gather for you, as previously mentioned: All DF enjoyers are dimwits. It's still not complex, go play AI dungeon instead if you want real story complexity.

> AI dungeon
that ♥♥♥♥ can't even remember the last 5 lines of its own "history"

Also you need to pay for more than like 10 posts a day and it doesn't even get lewd anymore, 0/10.

[katanaofsubterfuge]

Originally posted by Urist, the Bay 12 Speardwarf:

They do indeed have it backwards, but they know and openly state they have it backwards. They've publicly stated their primary goal is to simulate everything.

AI and hardware is going to let people make a better simulation games than them just through bruteforce alone, they are building an infinite ceiling but they haven't even built the walls or pillars yet. The simulation aspect would be all the better if they actually completed the fundamentals. The devs aren't the first people with ideas for a simulation game, it just requires a lot of hardware power to simulate a million different things happening simultaneously. All their 'hardwork' is going to get blown in the wind when hardware has another exponential boom, all their 'work' can be simulated by an AI soullessly crunching numbers, and no one will remember them for any unique gameplay ideas that could be added TOO the simulations, instead the simulation genre will be wrongly attributed to DF and their mindless drone work that could be automated by an AI.

[Multihog]

Originally posted by Frank McFuzz:

Originally posted by Nevermore:

> AI dungeon
that ♥♥♥♥ can't even remember the last 5 lines of its own "history"

Also you need to pay for more than like 10 posts a day and it doesn't even get lewd anymore, 0/10.

NovelAI is the service to use nowadays. AID has gone to ♥♥♥♥.

[The Former]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Originally posted by Urist, the Bay 12 Speardwarf:

That's what it comes down to, generally. The age-old gamer debate about complexity often devolves into a misconstruing of semantics. Strictly speaking, people like OP are referring to something that is convoluted, not complex.

The complexity of an action (and playing a game is an action) doesn't expect nor even require a lot of labor or variety. Complexity is about the number of things composing the gameplay, not about how much goes into actually engaging with the gameplay. The two are not necessarily intertwined.

Take for example Elite: Dangerous. Not a very complex game. Damage simulation is more or less one big HP bar, and your ships can't do a whole lot of things. You can learn everything there is to know about playing the game in a matter of minutes. Yet, if you turn all the flight assists off, boy does it become convoluted to play thanks to Neutonian flight physics.

Dwarf Fortress the opposite example. Extremely complex. It has simulations running for everything right down to the function of a creature's eyelids. But it's not at all convoluted. Playing the game is straightforward. You can learn how to operate the game in minutes. It takes considerably longer to learn everything there is to know about the game, what all you can take advantage of, and how to best do that.

OP seems to want a game that's convoluted to operate, rather than a game that's complex in its construction. Some games may be both, but honestly, most aren't. Most of the time a developer will pour all their time into complexity and focus on making it easy to tap, or will pour all their time into convoluted mechanics and gloss over what's under the hood. Rarely is it both.

>Complexity is about the number of things composing the gameplay, not about how much goes into actually engaging with the gameplay.

Reading that literally made me stupider (yes it's a word, Finnegan's Wake has it).

Take a rock for example. It's infinitely complex with trillions of particles and incomprehensible chemical structure that no human could comprehend holistically. And yet, a rock is just boring in real life. 'Boring' is a perfect way to desribr a rock. It's not very fun. You don't play with rocks for 1000 hours (unless you're on the spectrum. Theory #2: df enjoyers are on the spectrum).

A rock is a singular part. Sure it has molecular construction, but everything has molecular construction, so there'd be no need for a word to differentiate something that's complex at the molecular level from anything else.

The word "complex", then, we can assume is referring to something else. Here's how a few dictionaries help us determine just what it's referring to.

Webster: "a complex mixture of chemicals". The word "mixture" is important here. Yes, each chemical is composed of trillions of particles itself, whatever its form. But the mixture is what's complex. It's complex because several different chemicals, not particles, are combined.

Cambridge: "The company has a complex organizational structure." An organization isn't a physical object, so it has no particles at all. We can clearly discern that molecular composition in no way factors into the definition, then.

Britannica: "The house's wiring is complex." The house itself is already complex on a molecular level. That the wiring is distinguished by this word again tells us molecules have nothing to do with it.

Oxford: "Scientists need a better understanding of the complex interactions that cause hurricanes to intensify." We see here that actions can be complex. Actions, too, have no molecular structure.

Sorry if it seems like I'm talking down to paint you as a simpleton, that's not my intention. I'm only pointing out what you already know, being quite the intelligent sort: Complexity is a relative concept, contrived in order to distinguish things we can perceive (be it physical, such as machinery, or conceptual, such as the workings of an organization) from those perceived things that are simple.

There is no distinction to be drawn at the molecular level, because literally everything is complex. So we go to the truth of the matter: Being composed of only one solid part, a rock is simple in its construction. You don't get any simpler than one part. You knew this already, it's why you used the rock in your hyperbolic retort.

How does this apply to a video game?

Code is our molecular structure. It's the fundamental component all games are made out of. Every game is complex on that front. Thus, we must discern what "complexity" distinguishes when speaking of games. Again, the definition of "complex", this time from Oxford:

made of many different things or parts that are connected

If not code, then what? Well, the next step up is what the code builds: Features. Obviously, pong isn't a complex game. it has two features: Bounce mechanics (the "ball" will ricochet off all surfaces except the side of the screen), and paddles (each player can move a paddle in an attempt to trigger ricochet and prevent a score). In your rock analogy, Pong is a construct consisting of two rocks and a pebble.

Dwarf Fortress, on the other hand, has many features, and most of those features themselves are complex, being composed of a number of sub-features. Take for example, just one of the broad features in the game. Villains.

One of the devs spoke for 33 minutes on all the component mechanics going into villains and their procedural plots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7TtPX5uhg

This is the definition of a complex machine, whether or not any of this makes the game more convoluted to play.

[Snake Bit]

Originally posted by katanaofsubterfuge:

Originally posted by Urist, the Bay 12 Speardwarf:

They do indeed have it backwards, but they know and openly state they have it backwards. They've publicly stated their primary goal is to simulate everything.

AI and hardware is going to let people make a better simulation games then them just through bruteforce alone, they are building an infinite ceiling but they haven't even built the walls or pillars yet. The Simulation aspect would be all the better if they actually completed the fundamentals. The devs aren't the first people with ideas for a simulation game, it just requires a lot of hardware power to simulate a million different things happening simultaneously. All their 'hardwork' is going to get blown in the wind when hardware has another exponential boom, all their 'work' can be simulated by an AI soullessly crunching numbers, and no one will remember them for any unique gameplay ideas that could be added TOO the simulations, instead the simulation genre will be wrongly attributed to DF and their mindless drone work that could be automated by an AI.

Don't forget the dev of the game has certain lines he won't cross and will actively curtail in the modding scene due to personal opinions and views. I suppose you're right, when they manage to create a truly intelligent AI that can code and correct it's own code. You think that ai is going to have any moral or ethical stance on things it would be asked to make?