Soo uhh, where's all the "complexity"?

[Murderer Drug Dealer]

All I see is needless detail that exists, but adds literally nothing to the gameplay. I don't care that the goblin village 2 days away from me is fully simulated with agents, I can't see it and it doesn't affect me in any way. I don't care that Urist's right hand got chopped off, he picked it up and killed the werebeast with it, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay because the outcome is still the same - he killed the werebeast.

The actual complexity of the gameplay and managing a dwarf society doesn't exceed that of SimCity (or more seriously, some 4X games like Aurora4X, or even Civ 4). People mistake complexity (needless details with no real depth) with difficulty. It's difficult because there are a lot of things to know, and the UI is ♥♥♥♥ so you're stuck with reading the wiki or let's play videos.

All of the needless detail (hurr durr all beats are unique) really doesn't matter because it adds very little to the gameplay. All of the 'details' can be easily abstracted away and the game would still be the same, your combat log and legends would just not be there. But legends and combat log aren't complexity, they're simply narration.

[POWER WITHIN USER]

Cheap bait, hope they give you a couple reddit awards.
EDIT: I got one, it's over.

[braindamage]

lmao

[Gitrekt Gudson]

cool story

[Wafflcopterz]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

goblin village 2 days away from me is fully simulated with agents

About to attack you, and you can raid it. Effects you directly.

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Urist's right hand got chopped off, he picked it up and killed the werebeast with it, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay because the outcome is still the same - he killed the werebeast

Your dwarf can no longer use certain tools, is bleeding and needs medical attention, can be haunted by this and eventually go mad, or get accolades for it and make your fortress more renown giving you more visitors to interact/trade with. Carvings may be made of the event that will increase the value of your goods. Directly effects you.

Also if your dwarf got bit, he may become a werebeast himself. This DEFINITELY effects you. Puts your whole fort at risk when he turns.

How is none of that complex? And that's just scratching the surface. There's vampires, necromancers, expeditions to other locations, manipulation of land/water/lava and traps, ability to create fighting arenas and prisons for captured foes.

What sort of complexity are you looking for?

[pwnage_incarnate]

We're here for the narration. That's the reason we're here. The stories that our brain fabricates out of a set of procedural events are the appeal of games like Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld. Dwarf Fortress would absolutely function, and still be good, without the obsessive detail, but it wouldn't be a ☼masterpiece☼ without them

[Allekatrase]

While there is a lot of detail generated that likely won't affect anything directly, some of the things you mention do. I feel like you just haven't explored the options to interact with some of that narrative yet.

Also, the upcoming adventure mode opens up far more ways to interact with all that generated detail.

[Murderer Drug Dealer]

Originally posted by Wafflcopterz:

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

goblin village 2 days away from me is fully simulated with agents

About to attack you, and you can raid it. Effects you directly.

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Urist's right hand got chopped off, he picked it up and killed the werebeast with it, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay because the outcome is still the same - he killed the werebeast

Your dwarf can no longer use certain tools, is bleeding and needs medical attention, can be haunted by this and eventually go mad, or get accolades for it and make your fortress more renown giving you more visitors to interact/trade with. Carvings may be made of the event that will increase the value of your goods. Directly effects you.

Also if your dwarf got bit, he may become a werebeast himself. This DEFINITELY effects you. Puts your whole fort at risk when he turns.

How is none of that complex? And that's just scratching the surface. There's vampires, necromancers, expeditions to other locations, manipulation of land/water/lava and traps, ability to create fighting arenas and prisons for captured foes.

What sort of complexity are you looking for?

> About to attack you, and you can raid it. Effects you directly.

Don't care. It's the same as RNG choosing to attack every X seasons. If you can't do anything about it, then the details are pointless. Sending our raiding parties is the only option you have, but again there's no control over how that goes. Might as well just decide by chance of 80% that the raid will be successful and X amounts of goblins will be killed.

> What sort of complexity are you looking for?

Well why not start off with ACTUALLY being able to take over different territories or add some real complexity for raiding missions like planning, equipment, bringing back slaves, angering other nations, stealing animals etc. Why can't I be a nation of thieving dwarves?

Why not have some complexity in building forts by adding a red-stone equivalent? Why not have some actual complexity for the industry? The whole industry flowchart [dwarffortresswiki.org] is pretty simple.

And for all the "free-will" that the dwarves have, it's also pretty useless. A starving dwarf literally won't go to the kitchen to whip themselves up a meal on their own. There are a ton of personality traits but most of them either don't do ♥♥♥♥ (literally don't do anything) or they affect one action only, like an ALTRUISTIC dwarf will gain happiness from saving someone (but it doesn't actually affect if they decide to save them in the first place).

[RoyalFox]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Well why not start off with ACTUALLY being able to take over different territories or add some real complexity for raiding missions like planning, equipment, bringing back slaves, angering other nations, stealing animals etc. Why can't I be a nation of thieving dwarves?

Why not have some complexity in building forts by adding a red-stone equivalent? Why not have some actual complexity for the industry? The whole industry flowchart [dwarffortresswiki.org] is pretty simple.

Well there was Masterwork Dwarf Fortress where you could play as Orcs and go raiding to take slaves that you could put to work but they functioned as workshops and building/crafting materials. This was before Toady added raids so you had a workshop to send people out on raids and they could get hurt or killed too despite it just being a workshop.

With all the effort Toady put into Adventure mode that isn't here in Premium you won't see things like taking over sites in Adventure mode because you killed every individual person

[RoyalFox]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

Well why not start off with ACTUALLY being able to take over different territories or add some real complexity for raiding missions like planning, equipment, bringing back slaves, angering other nations, stealing animals etc. Why can't I be a nation of thieving dwarves?

This modern DF version does have the mission system of demanding tribute from other sites, conquering them, razing them, etc. Pillaging allows your dwarves to steal cattle and random loot. https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Mission Something I've yet to try since I was on the older versions with the older mods.

[RoyalFox]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

And for all the "free-will" that the dwarves have, it's also pretty useless. A starving dwarf literally won't go to the kitchen to whip themselves up a meal on their own. There are a ton of personality traits but most of them either don't do ♥♥♥♥ (literally don't do anything) or they affect one action only, like an ALTRUISTIC dwarf will gain happiness from saving someone (but it doesn't actually affect if they decide to save them in the first place).

The physical stats have an impact on their combat skills but this was more often important in adventure mode when building your character. Speaking as a Rimworld veteran I don't think you would want your dwarves to choose not to save dying dwarves, speaking from a realistic perspective I think most people would save a dying man on the street if nobody else was around since you tend to want that courtesy extended to you, and this doubles so in a fortress where everyone's survival directly depends on other people. It probably makes a better simulation that people who hate altruism still saves people in the fortress.

[Hipnox]

Originally posted by Halcyon Days:

I don't care that Urist's right hand got chopped off, he picked it up and killed the werebeast with it, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay because the outcome is still the same - he killed the werebeast.

Sounds like you are playing the wrong game then.

[RoyalFox]

I could probably go on about TPS (or I guess since this isn't rimworld its FPS) and how the more you simulate per dwarf the more calculations the game has to do per tick and the less of them you can have on a map before the whole game freezes up. I'd rather have bigger maps, more things on them, and more stuff going on, than more complex calculations going on in them.

[Slphapalme]

Hey there. So I'm playing the Tutorial Fort and I'm getting along very well. I don't know what else to build. Can someone give me tips? Eating and drinking is plentiful even in winter. I see no reason to build mechanisms or anything complex. Am I playing wrong?

[RoyalFox]

Originally posted by Naranja™:

Hey there. So I'm playing the Tutorial Fort and I'm getting along very well. I don't know what else to build. Can someone give me tips? Eating and drinking is plentiful even in winter. I see no reason to build mechanisms or anything complex. Am I playing wrong?

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Trap#Cage_trap Traps are one of the more important systems to learn.

[Heimdall]

Must be fun visiting your house...