Deleting taverns and other locations

[DnaK]

I could not for the life of me figure out how to delete taverns, hospitals, temples and other such zones locations. Is there a way that I'm missing? And no, I'm not talking about the green rectangle (the zones) that it's tied to.

{edit} = I want the ability to remove locations from this list when you accidentally create one[imgur.com]

[57th|Flinx]

Publicado originalmente por nrusselluk:

x10 times more ppl will complain, that they accidentally deleted the location, and can't associate the new one back.. and it'll be levelled up guildhalls, etc.

You are right! And what will happen to longterm residents that rented their room from the tavern, if the tavern or library is absolutely non existent anymore? Will they throw a tantrum? Vanish? will the room collapse? Sometimes it is good to think about things for some minutes before complaining. Could there be reasons i don´t know now? Should i ask if i can´t find out by myself? Or should i try to find out after playing some hundred hours later?
If it not CTD, it´s not really a bug.

[tobiaslarsson87]

Publicado originalmente por nrusselluk:

x10 times more ppl will complain, that they accidentally deleted the location, and can't associate the new one back.. and it'll be levelled up guildhalls, etc.

You don't HAVE to automatically remove the locations because you delete the Zone. You can have a delete button in the add to location sub menu.

[TacticalFaux]

Publicado originalmente por tobiaslarsson87:

I'm entitled to my opinion. In a game where you build stuff the lack of an ability to delete stuff is bad game design. Objectively. Bad design is BAD even if it's made with intent.

To be fair, DF is less of a game and more just a giant ABM. (Agent Based Model) You don't have direct control over anything. You basically play a blood god [dwarffortresswiki.org] and can just nudge some things in certain directions and the simulation plays out for your amusement.

Publicado originalmente por tobiaslarsson87:

When you pay for a product you have EVERY RIGHT to ask for changes. You can't sell something and then claim artistic integrity whenever customers are displeased with the product.

Uh, yes, they can. They have 0 obligation to change it for you just because you bought it. You bought it as is. That said, it's their lifes work and they are going to keep going. So we will certainly still get updates. But we are not entitled to updates, let alone updates you request. You can request all you want, and they very well may update it how you want. But thinking you are entitled to it just sounds... well, entitled of you.

DF was and still is free. The only reason they even made a paid version was to pay for medical care for one of the brothers. And for that, I'm happy to pay for it just so Tarn can buy his cyborg body and live forever.

All that said, I agree "deleting" locations would be a good change. However, if it has to stay due to memories, perhaps we can hide it from the list instead of delete it. This way inns and such could still "re-open" and be considered the same entity in legends and the memory of dwarfs without cluttering the menu.

Edit: Although, the only reason we may have too many locations anyway is user-error. I made that mistake on my first fort and won't be doing it again. So even this probably isn't super urgent compared to other things that could be worked on, like adventure mode.

[57th|Flinx]

Total agree with TacticalFaux.

I really want to have the visual 3D-game engine from the game "Embark" for this.

And if i click on a Dwarf, the game should pause and a voice over from Bruce Willis will tell me the thougts of the dwarf.

And when i click the fighting log, it should render a film that i can watch with the battlefield and all dwarfs and monsters fighting, from different perspectives instead of reading, "cutting the limb off."
Would that be cool? Yes. Will it ever happen? _____

[tobiaslarsson87]

Publicado originalmente por 57th|Flinx:

Total agree with TacticalFaux.

I really want to have the visual 3D-game engine from the game "Embark" for this.

And if i click on a Dwarf, the game should pause and a voice over from Bruce Willis will tell me the thougts of the dwarf.

And when i click the fighting log, it should render a film that i can watch with the battlefield and all dwarfs and monsters fighting, from different perspectives instead of reading, "cutting the limb off."
Would that be cool? Yes. Will it ever happen? _____

A silly strawman argument. That would be infinitely harder to implement.

[tobiaslarsson87]

Publicado originalmente por TacticalFaux:

Publicado originalmente por tobiaslarsson87:

I'm entitled to my opinion. In a game where you build stuff the lack of an ability to delete stuff is bad game design. Objectively. Bad design is BAD even if it's made with intent.

To be fair, DF is less of a game and more just a giant ABM. (Agent Based Model) You don't have direct control over anything. You basically play a blood god [dwarffortresswiki.org] and can just nudge some things in certain directions and the simulation plays out for your amusement.

Publicado originalmente por tobiaslarsson87:

When you pay for a product you have EVERY RIGHT to ask for changes. You can't sell something and then claim artistic integrity whenever customers are displeased with the product.

Uh, yes, they can. They have 0 obligation to change it for you just because you bought it. You bought it as is. That said, it's their lifes work and they are going to keep going. So we will certainly still get updates. But we are not entitled to updates, let alone updates you request. You can request all you want, and they very well may update it how you want. But thinking you are entitled to it just sounds... well, entitled of you.

DF was and still is free. The only reason they even made a paid version was to pay for medical care for one of the brothers. And for that, I'm happy to pay for it just so Tarn can buy his cyborg body and live forever.

All that said, I agree "deleting" locations would be a good change. However, if it has to stay due to memories, perhaps we can hide it from the list instead of delete it. This way inns and such could still "re-open" and be considered the same entity in legends and the memory of dwarfs without cluttering the menu.

Edit: Although, the only reason we may have too many locations anyway is user-error. I made that mistake on my first fort and won't be doing it again. So even this probably isn't super urgent compared to other things that could be worked on, like adventure mode.

I bought it expecting a woking game. I'm not asking for alot here. I ask for basic functionality that's still in line with the current gameplay loop. How is it entitled of paying customers to make demands? I might not ask for my money back but I certainly will not buy more products from a company who has that attitude. Also they have not claimed artistic merit to dodge complaints to I dont't really know what we are talking about here. 57th|Flinx did it on their behalf which is not the same thing. My argument was directed at him not the developers.

[Kasa]

Publicado originalmente por 57th|Flinx:

Maybe all of you will find out later how to use the features of the game, instead of thinking, they are bugs. btw, games are art. No one went to this Leonardo guy and told him, your Mona Lisa looks ugly, make her lips more red.
If you like the game and how it works, play it. Otherwise, don´t. Stop telling devs how they have to build their game for you.

Ok my dude, there are some bad actors who are hating on this game for childish reasons such as "I don't want to pay 40$ cad for just a art upgrade".

But right here was a incredibly mild "huh, I can't delete old tavern names" which is a legitimate bug. So how about you take a deep breath and turn it down from the 11 your currently at to maybe a 4 ya?

[57th|Flinx]

OK. Thx. But ppl should understand that taverns work since more than 8 years this way, and there must be a reason why it is working that way. If it is a bug, they have rapaired it in the last 3.000 days since taverns are in the fortress game. Maybe there are better ways, but maybe not for a two guys team building this game since 20 years.

This game is for making mistakes, and make it better next time. In the title it says: losing is fun.

[Kasa]

Publicado originalmente por 57th|Flinx:

OK. Thx. But ppl should understand that taverns work since more than 8 years this way, and there must be a reason why it is working that way. If it is a bug, they have rapaired it in the last 3.000 days since taverns are in the fortress game. Maybe there are better ways, but maybe not for a two guys team building this game since 20 years.

This game is for making mistakes, and make it better next time. In the title it says: losing is fun.

And that's fine, as you said it's just 2 guys (now 3) working on programming this there are gonna be some bugs that are low priority such as this one where which is just mildly inconvenient.

That said if we don't MENTION the bug then they may never know it exists.

[tobiaslarsson87]

Publicado originalmente por 57th|Flinx:

OK. Thx. But ppl should understand that taverns work since more than 8 years this way, and there must be a reason why it is working that way. If it is a bug, they have rapaired it in the last 3.000 days since taverns are in the fortress game. Maybe there are better ways, but maybe not for a two guys team building this game since 20 years.

This game is for making mistakes, and make it better next time. In the title it says: losing is fun.

It's fun to lose if you ♥♥♥♥ up. Not because of a dysfunctional UI. If it's been this way for eight years it only means that it's poor design by choise which does not excuse it. I realise that you can work around this by only creating a new Zone and then connect it to the location and then delete the old Zone if you want to move your tavern for example but it seems convoluted to not even give the option of deleting locations. What if I have to make a new guild hall in the same room for another guild because the only way to find out which guild asked for a guild is to create one. Then green text show you that they asked for a guild. You may have to repeat this several times until you find a guild that actually asked for one since there currently is no log and suddenly you have 10 locations created out of necessity. Yes it's possible to save the Alert until the guild is constructed but why should you have to?

[Morkonan]

Publicado originalmente por DnaK:

I could not for the life of me figure out how to delete taverns, hospitals, temples and other such zones locations. Is there a way that I'm missing? And no, I'm not talking about the green rectangle (the zones) that it's tied to.

{edit} = I want the ability to remove locations from this list when you accidentally create one[imgur.com]

For that, you will have to remove it from the Places menu if you created it and can't access its Zone, proper. You MAY have to remove it twice if you see two entries. (I've seen that at least once.)

You can also remove it by using it's location menu, itself. (Click Dwarf Head on icon bar, click on the Zone, click the nullset symbol. <poof>

But, if you have existing dedications or some that your dwarfs want, either temples or guild missions, they'll show up in that right-panel. You can't delete them from there AFAIK.

Publicado originalmente por tobiaslarsson87:

I bought it expecting a woking game. I'm not asking for alot here. I ask for basic functionality that's still in line with the current gameplay loop. How is it entitled of paying customers to make demands? I might not ask for my money back but I certainly will not buy more products from a company who has that attitude. Also they have not claimed artistic merit to dodge complaints to I dont't really know what we are talking about here. 57th|Flinx did it on their behalf which is not the same thing. My argument was directed at him not the developers.

You have the Right to make all the demands you wish.

You even have the Right scream them into the depths of the dark jungle, if you wish.

You even have the Right, as long as you obey the EULA, TOS, and communication medium rules, to "demand" change.

Not one person in the observable Universe is ever going to be obligated to listen to you at all. That is their Right.


As has been said a few times, but you may have missed it - The devs are going to bring both versions, Classic and Deluxe/Steam/whatever, to the same state. They'll get parallel development for as long as the devs wish to support it.

The game works. It does what it says on the box. It has its glitches and UI issues and bugs. One can, IMO, expect many, most, or all of those issues to be fixed... eventually. Or.. not. And, if not, we'll cross that bridge when it gets here. Bridges are pretty slow, tho...

That being said, you can click the "All" button on Burrow Assignments, now. That just hit, so it's at least "progress."

[Lance Lake]

I just would like the bug fixed eventually. :)

[TacticalFaux]

Publicado originalmente por Lance Lake:

I just would like the bug fixed eventually. :)

As others have pointed out it arguably isn't a bug and more a quality of life thing, if a change is made.

Edit: Someone below said you can do this in vanilla. If that's the case, suppose we'll just get it eventually.

[ShadyLurker]

Publicado originalmente por DnaK:

I could not for the life of me figure out how to delete taverns, hospitals, temples and other such zones locations. Is there a way that I'm missing? And no, I'm not talking about the green rectangle (the zones) that it's tied to.

{edit} = I want the ability to remove locations from this list when you accidentally create one[imgur.com]

I think it's that way so you can move a specific "meeting place" somewhere new. Like if you have a temple set up to a specific religion, you can set a new meeting place and then make that new meeting place the "same" church without having to remove it completely and then re-add a whole new temple ect. Or it could be a bug. It is kind of annoying to try and figure out which meeting place is "active" or an old, removed meeting place.

[Empath demon]

You can delete those locations in vanilla, it's just another oversight. They'll add the button eventually, until then is it really such a big deal? This thread is way too long.