Making dwarf fortress with modern coding

[Dendrazzik]

Well, why nobody can make this game in modern code?...like....if it's soo popular, why not making it with modern graphic, coding and so on?

[Robert]

Why do you say "it's written in ASCII", then? The game is written in C++, and the "ascii-style" visualization of the classic version has been rendered with the SDL library for ages by now. And you're in the forum of the Steam version, which is using 2D sprite graphics, I'm not sure which library/engine they went for here.

What you are really asking is, why doesn't it have modern graphics, right? Sure, it would be cool to have this game running in a modern engine like Unity or Unreal, with proper 3d voxel graphics, nice textures, detailed models, cool animations, and all that fluff.

But the developer Toady decided long ago that he doesn't want to put time and effort into fancy graphics, but rather keep working on the deep simulation engine which makes the game what it is today.

Sure, it would be cool if he'd make his simulation code open source and allow fans to port it to a modern engine. But it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon. It is how it is, if you want a relatively similar game with better graphics you could check out Rimworld, or some other stuff.

[Keshire]

Escrito originalmente por Dendrazzik:

Escrito originalmente por Vaendryl.NL:

then go ahead and code it yourself. since it's obviously completely trivial according to you I bet you'll be done within 3 months, just working on it a few hours a day here and there.

My point is, coding get better with time, like coding language...and allow you to do more complex things...so i don't understand why it was so hard to reproduce. I am asking the REAL coder here.

I'll give you a real answer. It's because nobody has the time, expertise, or access to rewrite and fine tune the procedural algorithms that Tarn has created over the past 20 years. It's the kind of work that requires a PHD in mathematics, which coincidently enough, Tarn has.

[Dendrazzik]

Escrito originalmente por Robert:

Why do you say "it's written in ASCII", then? The game is written in C++, and the "ascii-style" visualization of the classic version has been rendered with the SDL library for ages by now. And you're in the forum of the Steam version, which is using 2D sprite graphics, I'm not sure which library/engine they went for here.

What you are really asking is, why doesn't it have modern graphics, right? Sure, it would be cool to have this game running in a modern engine like Unity or Unreal, with proper 3d voxel graphics, nice textures, detailed models, cool animations, and all that fluff.

But the developer Toady decided long ago that he doesn't want to put time and effort into fancy graphics, but rather keep working on the deep simulation engine which makes the game what it is today.

Sure, it would be cool if he'd make his simulation code open source and allow fans to port it to a modern engine. But it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon. It is how it is, if you want a relatively similar game with better graphics you could check out Rimworld, or some other stuff.

finally an intelligent answer. Thanks.

I heard thta rimworld is nothing like DF, i play rimworld....people say DF is a lot deeper than rimworld since rimworld only touch the ''surface'' of the simulation.

[Soth]

Lol - y'all being mean. I think you all know what he meant - why not make it look pretty.

[Dendrazzik]

Escrito originalmente por Soth:

Lol - y'all being mean. I think you all know what he meant - why not make it look pretty.

thanks, this post prove that 90% of people are arrogant idiots with no manner.

[Zeek]

OP please explain what "modern code" means to you.

It's written in C/C++ which is a modern programming language used in many AAA games to this day.

[TrueWolves]

The heck is with all the insults because people don't like the question? Just because the original poster doesn't understand programming nuance and is asking more about it isn't an excuse to go off the deep end.

The short answer is: Dwarf Fortress is programmed in C++, which while an older programming language, is still one of the most used languages today. It does not use a game engine like Unity or Unreal, which would require redesigning the entire game from scratch. It is those engine tools that make graphics easier, not the programming language. But almost every game with modern graphics was made from scratch using just those engines from start to finish.

Even if Dwarf Fortress was made from scratch (keep in mind it has been worked on for over 20 years now) in a gaming engine with strong graphics support, it would become a lot less efficient and run a lot slower because these engines that make graphics and programming so much easier do so with a lot of short cuts that reduce efficiency where it doesn't matter as much. For a game like Dwarf Fortress, those short cuts would add up extensively. Notice the game is able to create entire worlds of history, geography, and mythology from scratch in under half a GB. Now imagine a game today trying to do half that with even 50 GB, and now imagine that same difference on cpu speed instead of memory.

As mentioned, many people have tried making better graphics for the game through various methods. Some people have even spent years trying to do so. No one's succeeded because the tools that make graphics easy do so in a quick and dirty way and don't easily port already home made code without rewriting a majority of it from scratch with the graphics in mind. Dwarf Fortress was first designed before any of these tools existed, and there would be no way they could have foreseen designing for them.

[McFuzz]

Escrito originalmente por Dendrazzik:

Escrito originalmente por Soth:

Lol - y'all being mean. I think you all know what he meant - why not make it look pretty.

thanks, this post prove that 90% of people are arrogant idiots with no manner.

You're really demonstrating constantly why you don't deserve a serious answer.

[Dendrazzik]

Escrito originalmente por TrueWolves:

The heck is with all the insults because people don't like the question? Just because the original poster doesn't understand programming nuance and is asking more about it isn't an excuse to go off the deep end.

The short answer is: Dwarf Fortress is programmed in C++, which while an older programming language, is still one of the most used languages today. It does not use a game engine like Unity or Unreal, which would require redesigning the entire game from scratch. It is those engine tools that make graphics easier, not the programming language. But almost every game with modern graphics was made from scratch using just those engines from start to finish.

Even if Dwarf Fortress was made from scratch (keep in mind it has been worked on for over 20 years now) in a gaming engine with strong graphics support, it would become a lot less efficient and run a lot slower because these engines that make graphics and programming so much easier do so with a lot of short cuts that reduce efficiency where it doesn't matter as much. For a game like Dwarf Fortress, those short cuts would add up extensively. Notice the game is able to create entire worlds of history, geography, and mythology from scratch in under half a GB. Now imagine a game today trying to do half that with even 50 GB, and now imagine that same difference on cpu speed instead of memory.

As mentioned, many people have tried making better graphics for the game through various methods. Some people have even spent years trying to do so. No one's succeeded because the tools that make graphics easy do so in a quick and dirty way and don't easily port already home made code without rewriting a majority of it from scratch with the graphics in mind. Dwarf Fortress was first designed before any of these tools existed, and there would be no way they could have foreseen designing for them.

THANKS MAN!!!!!!!!

[Dendrazzik]

Escrito originalmente por TrueWolves:

The heck is with all the insults because people don't like the question? Just because the original poster doesn't understand programming nuance and is asking more about it isn't an excuse to go off the deep end.

The short answer is: Dwarf Fortress is programmed in C++, which while an older programming language, is still one of the most used languages today. It does not use a game engine like Unity or Unreal, which would require redesigning the entire game from scratch. It is those engine tools that make graphics easier, not the programming language. But almost every game with modern graphics was made from scratch using just those engines from start to finish.

Even if Dwarf Fortress was made from scratch (keep in mind it has been worked on for over 20 years now) in a gaming engine with strong graphics support, it would become a lot less efficient and run a lot slower because these engines that make graphics and programming so much easier do so with a lot of short cuts that reduce efficiency where it doesn't matter as much. For a game like Dwarf Fortress, those short cuts would add up extensively. Notice the game is able to create entire worlds of history, geography, and mythology from scratch in under half a GB. Now imagine a game today trying to do half that with even 50 GB, and now imagine that same difference on cpu speed instead of memory.

As mentioned, many people have tried making better graphics for the game through various methods. Some people have even spent years trying to do so. No one's succeeded because the tools that make graphics easy do so in a quick and dirty way and don't easily port already home made code without rewriting a majority of it from scratch with the graphics in mind. Dwarf Fortress was first designed before any of these tools existed, and there would be no way they could have foreseen designing for them.

now i understand why rimworld start lagging after a while, the longer you play.

thanks. You're a decent human being.

[Dendrazzik]

Escrito originalmente por Frank McFuzz:

Escrito originalmente por Dendrazzik:

thanks, this post prove that 90% of people are arrogant idiots with no manner.

You're really demonstrating constantly why you don't deserve a serious answer.

nah you're just a rude idiot

[Niroc]

Short answer is it's going to be very logistically intensive to translate 20 years of code and system build up into a more modern design.

Long answer is basically the devs themselves don't seem interested in it. This release is probably the most modern they are going to go with it in terms of UI and QOL. I believe it's also still a small two-three man team. So while yes they could technically translate DF into a more modern game it would be a mammoth endeavor to do so. Switching game engines is far from easy and translating coding to a new language is even more daunting. And let's not even talk about switching to something like 2.5 or 3d graphics.

[Dendrazzik]

Escrito originalmente por Niroc:

Short answer is it's going to be very logistically intensive to translate 20 years of code and system build up into a more modern design.

Long answer is basically the devs themselves don't seem interested in it. This release is probably the most modern they are going to go with it in terms of UI and QOL. I believe it's also still a small two-three man team. So while yes they could technically translate DF into a more modern game it would be a mammoth endeavor to do so. Switching game engines is far from easy and translating coding to a new language is even more daunting. And let's not even talk about switching to something like 2.5 or 3d graphics.

thanks for your answer.

[Pogey-Bait]

Escrito originalmente por Vaendryl.NL:

lots of people tried. they all failed horribly. take a look at "gnomoria", "Town", "gobling camp" and "Timber and Stone" for a few more well known examples.

the only one that took most of the basic premise and really made it its own is Rimworld. everyone that tried to do what you're saying failed as clearly it's not nearly as easy as your dunning-kruger infested mind assumes it would be.

Excellent use of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Rampant these days.

Also, WHERE's MUH GRAFIX ????

[Niroc]

Escrito originalmente por Dendrazzik:

Escrito originalmente por Niroc:

Short answer is it's going to be very logistically intensive to translate 20 years of code and system build up into a more modern design.

Long answer is basically the devs themselves don't seem interested in it. This release is probably the most modern they are going to go with it in terms of UI and QOL. I believe it's also still a small two-three man team. So while yes they could technically translate DF into a more modern game it would be a mammoth endeavor to do so. Switching game engines is far from easy and translating coding to a new language is even more daunting. And let's not even talk about switching to something like 2.5 or 3d graphics.

thanks for your answer.

No problem. Game design is a complicated subject and while computers do make a lot of things easy, working with computers themselves to do anything other then basic calculations is a pain in the beard. Games like Rimworld were built from the ground up with modern game design in mind and don't have the decades of build up that DF has under it's belt.

I am sure if Rimworld sticks to it's guns and continues to update for a decade or so then it will most likely reach the depth and complexity DF has. But modern game dev cycles don't really support that style anymore.