Dwarf Fortress

Dwarf Fortress

Bigger PC Specs, Bigger Fortress?
Been wanting to play DF for a long time, very excited.

Does this game scale well with PC specs? Can we expect to have a Fortress for a long time with many dwarves because of a certain CPU? Thanks for your time.
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Showing 1-15 of 34 comments
Thumb Nov 5, 2022 @ 5:27pm 
I believe this game is mostly cpu intensive so theres like the best single core cpu you can get yourself go for that.
Rick Nov 5, 2022 @ 6:06pm 
Originally posted by DrMadHatten:
Been wanting to play DF for a long time, very excited.

Does this game scale well with PC specs? Can we expect to have a Fortress for a long time with many dwarves because of a certain CPU? Thanks for your time.
The main drag on a fortress is population, items, and pathing for the AI. A better computer helps, but there is an upper limit because of all the calculations being made.

If you want to prevent frame-rate issues, Limit your population of animals and dwarfs, sell or destroy frivolous items and old clothing, and set areas that you don't need your dwarfs entering (i.e. mined-out metal veins, caverns, areas of the fortress no longer in use, etc.) to "low" or "restricted" traffic.

Also, if you want to have dwarfs move through a grand hallway (or cavern, or outside), designating a traffic area through the hallway will limit framerate loss but won't prevent dwarfs from doing work in that area. Traffic controls are a great way to have large, stylistic areas and not experience framedeath.
clinodev  [developer] Nov 5, 2022 @ 6:51pm 
Faster clock speed and bigger L2 cache are nice, SSD never hurts for loading speed.

The most critical part is play style, though. There's a very common 2008-era meta of mass-producing decades worth of meals and trade goods, moving it from stockpile to stockpile, and wondering why oh why the fortress has slowed down so much. These people often play one fort, very badly, for each major release, and then declare the game's still too unoptimized, and then spread a host of other bad advice to new players before vanishing for a year.

Meanwhile people who keep up with development have large, happy forts at decent FPS. Zach Adams, one of the primary two developers, has shown an 8 year old 220 dwarf fort where everything appears to be moving around at decent speeds, a thing many say is impossible.

https://youtu.be/uE-FCtGdwMI?t=2656

The time stamp didn't work, he shows it starting at 44 minutes in.
Last edited by clinodev; Nov 5, 2022 @ 7:02pm
Voliol Nov 6, 2022 @ 2:20am 
It definitely scales as so far as crappy laptops running the game slowly. I believe it plateaus at some point though, so comparing two gaming rigs, one fancier than the other, they will likely run the game about as fast. Because they are both gaming rigs.
DrMadHatten Nov 8, 2022 @ 9:14am 
Research has corroborated the idea that play style and decisionmaking beforehand do much to increase the performance of one's fortress.

Consult this link here for more information:
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Maximizing_framerate#Fortress_Design
Skinny Pete Nov 8, 2022 @ 12:08pm 
Having lots of windy little passages will wreck your framerate. If you wall them off this not only helps with that but you won't find yourself surprised when invaders bypass all your fancy defenses to come in through a forgotten mineshaft.

dfhack has some fairly useful utilities for this too, that cause old useless clothing to slowly decay and eventually disappear entirely, or you can just manually obliterate things, or use a dwarven atom smasher (drawbridge that drops on things and destroys them) or if you are a purist, there's always magma.

There's also selling garbage to elves, who will buy anything, but if you have enough junk it's actually presenting a framerate issue, then so will a zillion little hauling jobs.

Big invasions slow everything down too, but this is usually actually to your benefit to some degree. Similarly with if you release the candy clowns. I generally don't mind the latter much since I might as well just amuse myself by watching the !!!FUN!!! going down when that happens.

Moving water and other liquids is really the one I've tended to notice.

My personal opinion is that anything above about 25fps is cozy enough to deal with. Anything much below that starts to become boring.
Grumpy Old Gamer Nov 8, 2022 @ 4:55pm 
Originally posted by DrMadHatten:
Been wanting to play DF for a long time, very excited.

Does this game scale well with PC specs? Can we expect to have a Fortress for a long time with many dwarves because of a certain CPU? Thanks for your time.
It scales with single thread and memory bandwidth performance. More cores wont help, a 4090 wont help.

Fast single core and fast memory are the only things that helps.

A fast HDD or SSD will help during save/load.
Last edited by Grumpy Old Gamer; Nov 8, 2022 @ 4:56pm
Mick Nov 9, 2022 @ 3:50am 
One of the biggest bottlenecks isn't even related to the fortress itself but the number of entities in the overworld.
That slowdown you experience as you progress with generating the world is going to scale in your fort and adventure mode gameplay as well as the number of historical figures piles up.
Originally posted by clinodev:
Faster clock speed and bigger L2 cache are nice, SSD never hurts for loading speed.

The most critical part is play style, though. There's a very common 2008-era meta of mass-producing decades worth of meals and trade goods, moving it from stockpile to stockpile, and wondering why oh why the fortress has slowed down so much. These people often play one fort, very badly, for each major release, and then declare the game's still too unoptimized, and then spread a host of other bad advice to new players before vanishing for a year.

Meanwhile people who keep up with development have large, happy forts at decent FPS. Zach Adams, one of the primary two developers, has shown an 8 year old 220 dwarf fort where everything appears to be moving around at decent speeds, a thing many say is impossible.

https://youtu.be/uE-FCtGdwMI?t=2656

The time stamp didn't work, he shows it starting at 44 minutes in.

If your game can't support someone who is unfamiliar with your game then it might not be an optimized game... It might be too unoptimized if (as I'm hearing from other threads) that the game only uses one CPU core... Why can't the game utilize more of the GPU? Old School RuneScape has a plugin to let it do just that.
Rick Nov 9, 2022 @ 11:29am 
Originally posted by megumeat:
If your game can't support someone who is unfamiliar with your game then it might not be an optimized game... It might be too unoptimized if (as I'm hearing from other threads) that the game only uses one CPU core... Why can't the game utilize more of the GPU? Old School RuneScape has a plugin to let it do just that.
The bottleneck comes from calculating physics on every single object in the game. The game looks 2D, but it's actually a 3D world. Things can get thrown in any direction, including up and down, and the game has to check every single item, creature, and person in your fortress, as well as any liquids moving around. Runescape doesn't have a physics engine.

And, from what I recall, multi-core threading will make bugs far worse because you will have conflict between the positions of items between threads, and that would cause serious issues in a game like Dwarf Fortress. A Dwarf that dodged one direction in one thread and another direction in a different thread, could end up in a wall or in magma. And that would be unacceptable.
Originally posted by Rick:
Originally posted by megumeat:
If your game can't support someone who is unfamiliar with your game then it might not be an optimized game... It might be too unoptimized if (as I'm hearing from other threads) that the game only uses one CPU core... Why can't the game utilize more of the GPU? Old School RuneScape has a plugin to let it do just that.
The bottleneck comes from calculating physics on every single object in the game. The game looks 2D, but it's actually a 3D world. Things can get thrown in any direction, including up and down, and the game has to check every single item, creature, and person in your fortress, as well as any liquids moving around. Runescape doesn't have a physics engine.

And, from what I recall, multi-core threading will make bugs far worse because you will have conflict between the positions of items between threads, and that would cause serious issues in a game like Dwarf Fortress. A Dwarf that dodged one direction in one thread and another direction in a different thread, could end up in a wall or in magma. And that would be unacceptable.

Right, but all a GPU is, is a CPU with cores that work together. Not really understanding how a dwarf can end up in a wall due to multithreading.
clinodev  [developer] Nov 9, 2022 @ 6:22pm 
The game design decision that other, similar games have gone with is effectively "Limit the player's ability to do things that slow the game down."

I'm told there are Rimworld mods that let you play with multiple z level maps, and others that allow hundreds of pawns, for example, and it immediately runs like crap. There are always many people arguing that "the dev should just do x!" but I'm not aware of any other game like DF that runs better without massive restrictions.

We can argue endlessly about what the devs should do, and believe me, you'll easily find people to argue with you about it, because half of us seem to have CS and/or EE degrees, and press for a major refactor of the code to make it run on a graphics card like the probably very similar Old School Runescape, or, alternately, you can learn to play the game in a modern manner, like the people running 400+ year old forts and so on. It'll probably be quicker to learn to play better.
CyberianK Nov 13, 2022 @ 11:11pm 
Originally posted by clinodev:
Meanwhile people who keep up with development have large, happy forts at decent FPS. Zach Adams, one of the primary two developers, has shown an 8 year old 220 dwarf fort where everything appears to be moving around at decent speeds, a thing many say is impossible.
I don't think we can say that when the video lacks a FPS counter and he is paused most of the time.

I have even trouble in 80-100 pop 2x2, small world forts where I destroy excess items and I sunk many hours into reading and following performance improvements, hundreds of hours ingame trying better layouts and such.
It runs acceptable for a few years but basically lategame slog is inevitable.

I guess I am too stupid to have 200 pop high FPS fort. That said even though there are no explicit performance improvements I still hope that the simplified work systems and my possible change of playstyle will improve some of the issues I had in the past.

Plus you don't need 10+ year forts in DF to have fun you can always start a new one.
Last edited by CyberianK; Nov 13, 2022 @ 11:12pm
clinodev  [developer] Nov 14, 2022 @ 2:06am 
Originally posted by CyberianK:
Originally posted by clinodev:
Meanwhile people who keep up with development have large, happy forts at decent FPS. Zach Adams, one of the primary two developers, has shown an 8 year old 220 dwarf fort where everything appears to be moving around at decent speeds, a thing many say is impossible.

I guess I am too stupid to have 200 pop high FPS fort.


Ouch. I hate that I'm coming across like that, and you do seem to keep up, but fair.

My biggest pieces of advice for someone like you are to eliminate stockpiles whenever possible. Just leave stuff in workshops, gather to trash zones, and so on. Stockpiles create hauling jobs, which create pathing. Some stockpiles like food are unavoidable. The other major one is longer term players often feel a need to keep the dwarves busy. It used to be, busy dwarves were happy dwarves, but now they'd just as soon listen to a story in the tavern and chat up a cute lady dwarf, with just the occasional job. I like to make sure I have many dwarves who can do any job I might need done quickly, in particular I have mining turned on for any dwarf without another uniform. Projects like libraries are good for older forts, they provide lots of activities that please dwarves without creating too much overhead.

That sort of thing saves the FPS for the occasional period of sheer terror, like dust spewing iron forgotten beasts and so on.
Borkentroll Nov 14, 2022 @ 2:09am 
Since there are really great fortresses running for multiple dwarf generations I guess FPS death can be circumvented.

For example, take a look at Archcrystal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=450281188dd9283921815b8c2eece142&topic=156319.0
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Date Posted: Nov 5, 2022 @ 4:56pm
Posts: 34