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Gideon gets kills with his ult though, because that blink cooldown is pretty lengthy, and intended to bear in mind when using it and when facing off against opponents. Gideon can get off multiple ults before a blink is recharged.
And Kallari's jump is a real problem. I'm getting the sense you may not have come up against a good Kallari player, but they're out there, and they're incredibly evasive. And they don't use the jump just for escaping, but strategically in combat.
As far as #1, you're speaking to a real pet peeve of mine, which is people thinking they know the game is lost when it's really not. You may think they're determined in the first 15 mins. As you pointed out, a lot of others seem to think so too, as there is a great deal of surrendering going on at the moment. Truth is though, I've lost count of how many teams I've had to drag kicking and screaming past the W line. Losing games are totally winnable, sometimes even despite the combination know-it-alls/glass-jaws that are initiating and agreeing to surrenders so much of the time. I've won 4 v 5s in here. The point at which a game is truly unwinnable, it's about to actually be over anyway, for the most part.
And I don't agree that this feels like Monolith. It doesn't have some of the distinguishing features of legacy Paragon that I enjoyed, but the pacing of it seems to be about on-par, and if there is no laning going on, that's something to exploit. Legacy had plenty of matches like that too - Monolith didn't invent the deathball for Paragon, it just rewarded it more, and placed emphasis on the stat/combat game. For every person on the opposing team deathballing though, that's one person not getting xp from where they're supposed to be, and you can capitalize on that by playing cautiously and waiting to outgrow the deathball.
I'd encourage you to give it a bit more of a shot. Sounds like you had some bad games, which are always going to happen. I've found it to be a lot of fun, and reminiscent of the game I was afraid I'd never get to play again.
Hero pool is ♥♥♥♥, ofc they can add more over time, but with this pace it will take centuries.
Yes, items are terrible too, every ranger item has crit chance for no reason, with full build you end up having 120% crit chance. For what ? And that is only 1 thing out of many why items suck.
Yes, having inbuilt wards and blinks is stupid.
On top of those, animations are terrible, weapon sounds are terrible, projectiles or abilities are barely visible, you pretty much shoot and use blanks all the time and many many other bad things that are in the game.
RGSACE in dev video said they focus on gameplay first, to make this game fun to play. With all these ♥♥♥♥♥ in the game and many other things, I can honestly say: game is super boring to play.
To be honest i barely play this, probably playing for nostalgic reasons. If i was a new player coming to try this game and never played Paragon before, I would not stick to play this game, because it is not fun. I would think that this is another lazy game that has nothing interesting and new to offer.
Is the map still unfortunately monolith? Yeah, but its a bit better than monolith was, at least. In any regard, its worlds better than Overprime in just about every regard.
1., 2. and 5. are totally spot on. Rest also true.
"Game is decided 15 minutes in"
"there is no laning phase"
thats just not true, you cant have both be the case since the first 15 minutes is heavily defined by minion farming, 10 minions i think is about a kill, so being ahead in minions is a huge part of it.
even when a character is fed later they are often quite squishy too and can be killed, when the enemy has a 10 kill countess she is scary as hell, but if you cc and nuke her you can still win, however kills and cs is meant to be a part of the game that matters
"jungler can gank all the time"
and be behind on cs which again is really important for gold
"midlane can just leave lane with no consequences"
not really, at best it takes 15 - 20 seconds to run to another lane, prob 10 - 25 seconds to gank, back and 20 seconds to get back into lane. thats a minute lost if you back, if you run over and gank and run back its a similar amount of time, 1 minute is aloooot of damage you can do on tower, to the point of taking it down. The fact that some people are too stupid to capitalize on enemies leaving lane does not mean it cant be done.
"you can be bullied out of lane so you cant do anything to get back"
this also goes against laning phase, which you said didnt exist, but you can farm at tower, there are almost nobody who can survive a tower dive for the first big part of the game, also you have a jungler who can help you turn it around, as they should.
"people surrender too quickly"
absolutely, wish they made it take longer before you can surrrender, because 10 minutes at a 4 out of 5 vote is waaaaay too early
"comeback mechanics are non existent"
you can wipe the enemy team but they have talked about making fangtooth more comeback mechanic heavy, and im not sure if there are bounties but yeah that would be nice.
"its always a stomp from one side"
not true either, plenty of games that are tense and can go either way, especially end game with the 90 second respawn timers.
"few heroes same lineups"
20 heroes is 6 more than original legacy paragon, but yeah there are definitely some preferred picks, thats just part of being early access though. Those heroes can be played in a few different ways
"no activatable items"
except your crest, which are super strong, and personally im in favour of this, it seems to depend alot on if you play dota or league, i think the way dota has like 4 active items on every character is frankly disgusting, and i feel like the crests strikes a pretty good middle ground with the various upgrades being good for different situations, forexample the support crest silence is super good at countering gideon or riktor, its not like the enemy team suddenly changes after you pick item.
"flash bad, makes spell useless"
you have a 5 minute CD on it, you are meant to bait it out and punish people by using it and catching them or to use things like gideon ult when they dont have them, gideons ult is hyper powerful and if you couldnt get out of it it would need to be nerfed heavily, you act like you can just blink 8 times per fight, but its once, and if you do and the enemy doesnt you can be damn sure they gonna catch you.
Its a basic flash, you learn to play around it, but seems you are indeed a dota player so its a preference thing.
"items are horrendeous and adds nothing"
HEAVILY disagree, i think the items are incredibly potent at doing what they need to do and PRECISELY enable things and playstyle. once again feels like a remnant of you being used to dota stats (which i personally think is a horrendeously poor system and one of the things i dislike about dota, so thats my preference) but every stat matters and you can build around them.
If you dont think there is a playstyle around utilizing fire blossom aoe, or aoe slow, or regenning mana when taking damage, or bursting heavily on your first basic attack, or slowing on all your spells then im not sure what to tell you. Every single endgame item has a unique effect, to the point where you can play full AP barry with prophecy and magnify making a new playstyle.
the stats are just the tip of the iceberg but lets take "facing mages get magic resist" if you know they burst their combo over a short duration you can take vanguardian to get incerased resistances for 4 seconds and 60 second cd, if you know you are gonna be in the middle of things you can take truesiklver bracelet to give you a shield on using ult and gain cc immunity if you know that they have heavy cc combs. If you know they have a massive burst ult you can take spellbreaker to block the first spell thrown at you forcing them to waste time trying to get rid of it. if you know they do lots of small damage bursts take crystalline cuirass to do aoe bursts of energy every 1.5 seconds.
seems like you just havent really delved into items and just takes whatever is recommended without thinking about it.
"Verticality bad"
REALLY now? there are so many places where verticality can make a difference especially with kallari literally skipping walls, dont get me wrong i miss my old rampage super yeet, massively so, but the way this verticality is used is quite effective but alot more subtle, where as old paragon as much as i loved it you could basically traverse most of the map in a single leap.
the ones that comes to mind is how you can look into the fangtooth pit from the a little set of stairs and see what is going on, the small hike up to the side lanes that allows you to chase people away from lane but not just let people run out into it without using some verticality. Kallari can skip between the camps effectively being able to cut through the middle paths of the jungle where others needs to run around. The way that exp and gold cap are in a small downward area allow you to come from above and gank it making it more dangeous but they cant just run away back into lane they have to commit to one of the exits.
and how orb prime has basically 2 rings where one is higher to force people closer but allowing more space for ganks if my memory doesnt fail me on that one, but thats fuzzy, and thats just from memory.
"go play overprime instead"
just seems like the weirdest solution when they literally have the things you are complaining about in much bigger spades being a brawler royale instead of a moba.
Seems like out of your 31h in this game you were like 29h idling in main menu. I can even understand it as they pay you for defending this game of forum, not actually playing it.
May add that there is SOME laning phase but its rather symbolic. If you stay on lane and try to farm, you are not participating in frantic teamfights all around the map (starting like from 3-4th minute), which leads to imminent loss. Hurra, you lost with 120 creeps killed. GJ
See? Thats what I mean talking about idling 29h in menu. Countess is op and fed? NO PROBLEM! Just adjust your entire build just for her (ignoring rest of enemies) and coordinate 4 other randoms to focus her! What's your problem anon?! IQ to the moon.
Yes. really. How many games have you been playing mid? 1? 2? I can take farm from mid with gideon, gadget or Howz and roam as much as I like. Then back to lane again, 7 sec to clear and again.
Sure, People should "enjoy" being stomped by sweaty Discord packs much longer! It only proves me you are bot, not real player here.
Yes yes, I know you can.
But seriously here. I think problem is too small map. In LoL you can "steal" or sneaky kill Baron and make 'comeback' whatsoever. Lanes are longer, map is bigger, some things require more time. Here when you go to Orb Prime for 30-40 sec, minions gonna go all path to your core. You can kill enemy with bounty on it, but there is no impact of it, when everything happens on such small area. You three will chase countess or khaimera, meanwhile enemies will go from their base to yours in like 10 sec and ♥♥♥♥ core. Honestly, some matches remind me TDM in CoD, not MOBA game.
Again, 29h idling in menu.
Instructions from Omeda? "Don't deny small hero pool, but try to sooth it and make dmg control". I see like 10 out of 21 all the time. It's like playing the same match over, and over, and over, and over, and over again...
GOD. First time I must say you said something reasonable.
The problem is that attack items give MUCH mroe than defense ones. But honestly bro with this "incredible potency" lol...
I won't argue here as I dont play "jumpy" heroes.
This in my experience is not true either. You just need to do something different. If you're getting killed in jungle or lane 3 or 4 times you need help, call for a gank or rotate or group up. There is definitely ways to shut players down thats on a roll.
If you don't manage your lanes properly, you will lose the game. I've had many games where setting up a lane properly then distracting the enemy team in another lane has allowed the minions to push the Core. Death balling can be countered if you are smart with your positioning and pushing lanes where the enemy team isn't at.
I don't even know where this information is coming from because this is blatantly false. I have had more games that are close and determined by one late teamfight than I have had blowouts. I have had plenty of games where we had to come from behind due to heavy, early pressure and a good jungler. The mechanics are there, you just have to know how to use them properly.
More heroes are coming. It's still EA. Revenant will be released in January, followed by Shinbi in February and a brand new hero in March.
I would like to see more items like this but this is far from a game-breaker. Based don't the enemy team, you have options with your crest that you can take. They aren't meant to be a get-out-of-jail-free card, just something that might turn the tide of a critical team fight.
Blink is on a 5-minute cooldown. This is a non-issue. If you are a smart player, you try to save your Blink just for these instances but with good pressure (you know, playing the game like you should), most characters' Blink will be on cooldown.
We may not be playing the same game. No, there aren't items that allow you to make the world's best waffles. The items all have game mechanic applications. I was able to figure out a great item list in a matter of a few games. Use the search function.
Can't really comment on this as I'm not a Jungler although the SNES comparison is a bit over the top.
I agree, if you do not like the game, go play Overprime or whatever other type of game there is. Just don't spread false information.
I want to respond to some of the comments made.
First there was a lot of comments regarding my first point. I still believe that the game suffers heavily from this and I do not believe that more games played will change this. If you are lucky enough to not have surrender after surrender in your games than that is a great experience and I would have hoped for the same. Instead I found that most of the games I played were blow outs. I either stomped or was stomped. I had very few close games.
Additionally, there are a lot of comments about my criticism on lane commitment and I stand by it. It is VERY easy to push your lane out, quickly jump to another lane, and make it back to your lane before your lane is being pushed. Someone said it takes about 1 minute to do so and I agree with that time estimate. To say afterwards that you can do a lot of damage in 1 minute is not accurate. If I have pushed mid to the enemy tower, I can easily gank a side lane and make it back before my tower has taken significant damage.
I also saw a lot of comments saying that the deathball, TDM, Brawling, feel of the game is inaccurate and I stand by what I said. The map is too small. The lanes are too close. The jungle is too small. All of this leads to WAY too much team fight from the very start of the game and little to no lane commitment.
Lastly, on point 1, I see people saying that the game can not be determined in the first 10 minutes by being bullied out of lane but also have no lane phase. I can see how that sounds counter to itself but I still believe it is accurate to say. In most games I played if I was ahead in the lane I was able to hold off the other team with little to no recourse from the enemy team. I main offlane and if I was ahead by level 3 I stayed ahead and bullied the other offlane out. Yes I could get ganked by mid or jungle but a simple blink out of battle or a mobility spell and I was gone. Also with no denies, I could manage the lane very easily. Now that being said, there are also the times when I lost the lane and once this happened, I felt that I had no recourse. With 0 slow when attacking the enemy, one can just chase all the way back to tower every time you try and get CS. This comes with little to no cost to the bully. Yet once the game goes to 10 minutes the game really does not open up allowing you to either fall back to your second tower and CS or move to the jungle as the jungle is already taken. So yes there is a very simplistic lane phase but it quickly dissolves into a team brawling death match instead of the strategic MOBA experience I would like to see.
I saw a lot of comments about the items. I again stand by my comment. Sure the items have useful passives and they are rather complicated in how many are there. BUT because they are all passive, the complexity of having to properly TIME your item is removed. This means the items add complicated readings to figure out what they all do but you do not have to intelligently USE them. You just need to buy the item that best fits your enemy and voila you are done. Thus saying that due to the volume of options available means that there is in fact complexity is inaccurate. The items add nothing to the skill cap.
I have also seen people comment on how the blink has a long cooldown so this makes it justified. I can not disagree more. This goes hand in hand with how a MOBA goes from the lane phase to the mid game. It is defined by getting your first item which in A LOT OF CASES is a blink. To give it away at the very start goes back to the reason that the lane phase feels missing and that it blends into the mid game so quickly. Power spikes are so important in a properly functioning MOBA. Each hero should reach these at different times and usually revolve around getting your first item. This game does not follow that game mechanic.
Finally people are confusing my comment to go play Overprime as me saying it does not have some of these same problems. Or that I should be criticising it instead. These people did not get my point. Overprime has lots of the same problems as Predecessor but this is not a critique about that game. The reason I say for players to go play Overprime is that the game is FREE. With all of the problems that both games have why should anyone pay for a broken game when a free option is available? Additionally I hate the small map of Predecessor which really is the difference maker for me. Even if you liked Monolith, I would not recommend PAYING for this game when an alternative is available and is free. This game is not worth the cost. Wait till it is free and changes have come in to make the game more enjoyable. This game is not worth the cost. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Blink does need a small cooldown after damage I agree.
Map could be better, but take into consideration that every moba that has ever existed has had really bad maps at one point.
These items are far from complicated and shouldn't be labeled as such, That being said, the passives offer very little synergy with the heroes themselves and their abilities, which is why you see so many ADC's build crit for no reason.
And to top it all off: You didn't read the roadmap or anything on the storepage. The game will be free, but is in Early Access. If it was more complete, it would be free and have a lot more to it, so it doesnt.
Oh, and your overprime are valid but uh.. it just doesn't seem like you enjoy the traditional moba style. Overprime is day and night compared to this game.