Rogue Legends lacks the fundamentals of a good roguelike

[WowIExist]

Hey all. Probably an irrelevant post given the general consensus on the game mode but I felt the need to vent some of my frustrations here. I was hyped when the mode came out, but soundly disappointed in its execution. Here's a few of my main thoughts.

Monkeys: I think the idea of getting pre-upgraded monkeys and having to work with what you get is a great idea, however there is no randomisation, particularly in regard to monkey-specific relics. You always get a set path (one which I usefully find to be the least useful of the three options, I mean who needs range for a tack shooter outside of specific scenarios where there's no corners or loops?) which I find makes the way in which you can use them far too limiting. The most fun part of BTD6 for me is making builds for your towers which synergise with each other, and this feels like it should be particularly relevant when it comes to trying to build around your relics, yet the selection is so limited it makes some relics not even worth considering because you know the monkey it gives you cant be what you want. At least if it was random there would be strategy in considering what to pick.

Relics: I find the relics incredibly underwhelming. In an actual roguelike like Slay the Spire or Binding of Isaac, every choice seems like a crucial step in working towards a build. Instead, the relics are largely... Unimpressive. I've seen maybe four which could actually be considered build-arounds (mainly the one that increases magic monkey power but increases other categories cost, or the one that grants military monkeys attack speed based on how few you have) yet most of them appear to be small percentile buffs or niche use effects which largely don't contribute or need to be factored in when considering your play style.

Progression: Gating starting builds behind skins is annoying, however my main gripe is how little impact each run has on the next. There is nothing to unlock (bar unlocking starter relics, though as mentioned above that feels like it has so little impact). The best part about roguelikes imo is unlocking new options for future runs, be it starting options that can define the course of your run or things you can find throughout your playthroughs. Having none of this makes each run feel unrewarding.

I love the idea of the mode, however it really feels like the devs need to make some significant changes and really sit down to consider what makes the roguelike genre great. I'll come back to this once there's significant updates.

[Mumeiro]

As you said, a lot of people share this sentiment, and it is valid.

The pre-determined paths for monkeys is frustrating at times because I have a default plan and use for each of the monkeys, so being forced to use a different cross path can be a fun challenge. Initially. After the first few maps. I'm dropping the same towers to start because that's the only option I have. There are a few instances where you'll find your extra range tack shooter to be useful... but outside of that one map you most likely won't use it again. Also the cool down on the monkeys? I'm still not sure how I feel about that. The cash limit is meant to prevent you from spamming monkeys... adding a cool down is just another limiter that seems like a place holder for better balancing. Like I know it serves a purpose... but I don't know that I agree with that purpose if that makes sense?

The relics are underwhelming. I mean to some extent it's what I expected, but I would have hoped for more game play changing relics. Tacks bouncing off of walls can be fun in tight quarters but outside of that it doesn't do much for my run. Since some of the relics come with towers I also have to consider is this tower going to be worth putting on my limited team? Sure you can drop a monkey from your team but if you picked up a relic for a tack shooter... why would not want to use the tack shooter? I think those quests they do could hold the answer here. A relic that lets you drop some of the walls from the dartling gunner quest? So you can bounce projectiles off of them for extra pops would be fun.
Now I've not gotten far at all - so maybe there are really cool relics I haven't seen yet, but so far it's percentile changes or simple effects that can be fun but do not make or break a run. I'd like to see things like the zombie balloons from Adventure Time BTD, where rather than it being for the necromancer some of the bloons you pop resurrect from time to time but you get some other benefit. Or you get a relic that can be used for different powers.

I've said before for the progression they should do something like they did with BTD5 or Supermonkey - where you can invest into increases for attack speed, pierce, damage and the like. Being able to do a run and then decrease the MOAB hp for your next run could add that little bit that the progression is missing.

I think it was a good start for the concept, there is a skeleton there that has possibility and with good feedback, care and time it could be a really fun addition to the game. But I get where people are coming from.

[Pu Pu Pratter]

I completely agree with WowIExist and Mumeiro's statements and would like to add...

For some reason what this game mode boils down to is replaying rounds 13 to 24 (for example) over and over again (the same maps that you have played 100's - 1000's of times already.

Why would anybody want to do that? Why only play a sliver of the already arbitrarily made up end of round number? The map ends at round 24 (for example) but for some reason you start playing at round 13. Why?

Just this one random game mechanic screws up a massive portion of the player's agency. Only having 11 rounds per game and starting at round 13, means that all per turn revenue generators are hamstrung (benjamin, farms, buccaneers, quincy doll, Etc.). The worst case scenario also ♥♥♥♥♥ the regen of geraldo's abilities the of camo detection (for example) and the leveling up of etienne and churchill camo detection etc.).

The lame and limited/limiting 11 round hamstrung slice of an actual game, means that in a mode that has 3 round cooldowns to repurchase a monkey, the player is scammed out of rounds 1 to 12. for example, if you could purchase a monkey at round 1 then at round 4 then at round 7 then at round 10... the player would have possibly 4 monkeys by round 12. But, the player instead now starts at round 13 with some money and nothing else... why? Why not just have 1 to 24 rounds? All of the heroes and monkeys that were overlooked/missed will then at least have level a playing field.

For some reason the vast majority of in game bonuses are trash and are selected from too large a pool. The majority of relics are trash. The majority of monkey rolls (your crew) are trash (compared to starting from a 0-0-0 monkey). Unless you get lucky with the explosive dart monkey. Why are the starting monkey's not fully randomized or 0-0-0? Why are they made as useless as possible? Who wants a submarine monkey that is 0-1-3?

This game mode is unfortunately worse than the base game. This should be free DLC and I wish I had not purchased it (I never would have paid to play 11 rounds at a time of maps I have already ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ played hundreds of times). This mode feels like playing bloons 1. Everything is squashed, reduced, unrewarding and lame... primitive. This game mode goes out of it's way to weaken the player's effectiveness. For some reason this game mode does not consider player fun as part of it's programming... At no point will any long time player be "wowed" by any part of this repetitive retread of the same repeating maps deconstructed.

...but the overworld map is nice and the new song is good. So that is something I guess!

[TheFancierWendigo]

Originally posted by WowIExist:

Hey all. Probably an irrelevant post given the general consensus on the game mode but I felt the need to vent some of my frustrations here. I was hyped when the mode came out, but soundly disappointed in its execution. Here's a few of my main thoughts.

Monkeys: I think the idea of getting pre-upgraded monkeys and having to work with what you get is a great idea, however there is no randomisation, particularly in regard to monkey-specific relics. You always get a set path (one which I usefully find to be the least useful of the three options, I mean who needs range for a tack shooter outside of specific scenarios where there's no corners or loops?) which I find makes the way in which you can use them far too limiting. The most fun part of BTD6 for me is making builds for your towers which synergise with each other, and this feels like it should be particularly relevant when it comes to trying to build around your relics, yet the selection is so limited it makes some relics not even worth considering because you know the monkey it gives you cant be what you want. At least if it was random there would be strategy in considering what to pick.

Relics: I find the relics incredibly underwhelming. In an actual roguelike like Slay the Spire or Binding of Isaac, every choice seems like a crucial step in working towards a build. Instead, the relics are largely... Unimpressive. I've seen maybe four which could actually be considered build-arounds (mainly the one that increases magic monkey power but increases other categories cost, or the one that grants military monkeys attack speed based on how few you have) yet most of them appear to be small percentile buffs or niche use effects which largely don't contribute or need to be factored in when considering your play style.

Progression: Gating starting builds behind skins is annoying, however my main gripe is how little impact each run has on the next. There is nothing to unlock (bar unlocking starter relics, though as mentioned above that feels like it has so little impact). The best part about roguelikes imo is unlocking new options for future runs, be it starting options that can define the course of your run or things you can find throughout your playthroughs. Having none of this makes each run feel unrewarding.

I love the idea of the mode, however it really feels like the devs need to make some significant changes and really sit down to consider what makes the roguelike genre great. I'll come back to this once there's significant updates.

yeah one of the few good relics is a the dreadbloon one but thats only because it makes group/class specific buffs apply to all monkeys

[xSil3ntd34thx]

Originally posted by TheFancierWendigo:

yeah one of the few good relics is a the dreadbloon one but thats only because it makes group/class specific buffs apply to all monkeys

And with that dreadbloon relic (or the primary one) comes the issue of "class only" buffs, like "increase attack speed by X for class Y AND increase cost of other classes", where the debuff once again outweights the buff but for literally every monkey ever because both get applied to every monkey for whatever reason.
Also its weird only seeing class only buffs being "increase attack speed of X and increase cost of Y", why isnt there any different form like "increase damage of X and decrease attackspeed of Y" or something similiar with different parameters, its all just "attackspeed -> cost" right now.

[idiot5k]

Originally posted by Pu Pu Pratter:

I completely agree with WowIExist and Mumeiro's statements and would like to add...

For some reason what this game mode boils down to is replaying rounds 13 to 24 (for example) over and over again (the same maps that you have played 100's - 1000's of times already.

Why would anybody want to do that? Why only play a sliver of the already arbitrarily made up end of round number? The map ends at round 24 (for example) but for some reason you start playing at round 13. Why?

Just this one random game mechanic screws up a massive portion of the player's agency. Only having 11 rounds per game and starting at round 13, means that all per turn revenue generators are hamstrung (benjamin, farms, buccaneers, quincy doll, Etc.). The worst case scenario also ♥♥♥♥♥ the regen of geraldo's abilities the of camo detection (for example) and the leveling up of etienne and churchill camo detection etc.).

The lame and limited/limiting 11 round hamstrung slice of an actual game, means that in a mode that has 3 round cooldowns to repurchase a monkey, the player is scammed out of rounds 1 to 12. for example, if you could purchase a monkey at round 1 then at round 4 then at round 7 then at round 10... the player would have possibly 4 monkeys by round 12. But, the player instead now starts at round 13 with some money and nothing else... why? Why not just have 1 to 24 rounds? All of the heroes and monkeys that were overlooked/missed will then at least have level a playing field.

For some reason the vast majority of in game bonuses are trash and are selected from too large a pool. The majority of relics are trash. The majority of monkey rolls (your crew) are trash (compared to starting from a 0-0-0 monkey). Unless you get lucky with the explosive dart monkey. Why are the starting monkey's not fully randomized or 0-0-0? Why are they made as useless as possible? Who wants a submarine monkey that is 0-1-3?

This game mode is unfortunately worse than the base game. This should be free DLC and I wish I had not purchased it (I never would have paid to play 11 rounds at a time of maps I have already ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ played hundreds of times). This mode feels like playing bloons 1. Everything is squashed, reduced, unrewarding and lame... primitive. This game mode goes out of it's way to weaken the player's effectiveness. For some reason this game mode does not consider player fun as part of it's programming... At no point will any long time player be "wowed" by any part of this repetitive retread of the same repeating maps deconstructed.

...but the overworld map is nice and the new song is good. So that is something I guess!

the reason for the increassed starting round is to reduce the time investment you need to put in this mode (and i think thats personally a good thing they did with this) but i agree you get screwd out over being able to place the same tower multyple times even if you have the starting cash (wich is why going for many battles actually ends up killing your runs, i experienced this first hand). it would be nice if with the starting money and starting hero xp increase they also allowed you to place multyple copies of the same tower based on starting round (so if you start at round 12 you get 3 because 12 divided by 4=3).
agree with everything else most relics feel too weak to have an impact on the run or are outshadowed by other relics (why take unification if you have essence of dreadbloon. hell i dont get why essence of dreadbloon doesnt autoban unification from showing up). also the balance is awefull. compare the damage increase from growing steady vs the pierce increase of the spike factory relic for example. spike factory relic effectively gives like a 10% pierce increase (i know it says something like 120% but it halves speed so that already removes 100% and cuts the remaining percent in half). meanwhile growing steady gives like 15% damage increase PER WAVE, wich is not just stronger but keeps getting stronger as the game progresses. it feels like they didnt playtest this mode or put any thoughts into balancing and just went "well watch the players choices to find out what is strong and what is weak"

[Arc]

*Roguelite
Fundamentally if there's any metaprogression at all, its not a roguelike