Monkey Knowledge for Beastmaster and Mermonkey

[VY Canis Melodis]

With the ability to get monkey knowledge and spend them on the other towers, it's a little unfortunate that the two new towers have no specialised upgrades for them in the monkey knowledge sector. I worry that they might not quite be balanced for both those who have all the knowledge and those who have very little unlocked.

[Kunovega]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Publicado originalmente por Kunovega:

How so? It's the original high end challenge the game came with. It tests every track to level 100 and with no special powers or monkey knowledge. If all tracks can be beaten with only the vanilla monkeys, that's the core challenge that all monkeys are balanced around.

Literally everything else you can unlock from monkey knowledge or special powers or double cash is just making the game easier, but then can only be used in challenges that aren't as hard as CHIMPS.

This makes every other mode of the game a novelty, something added for fun or variety but none of them being the core challenge of the game. All of your unlocks make everything else easier, but not CHIMPS.

All monkeys are balanced around what they can do in CHIMPS with no bonuses and no extra cash, it's the purest test for comparison of a tower.

Once you understand CHIMPS, every other option in the game is just for fun and is vastly easier with all the extra bonuses you can use there.

You aren't very far into the game if you think that's bizarre. It's how the game has evolved since day one.

a vast majority of players either do not have the skill or patience to beat most maps on chimps

Yes and? That really has nothing to do with how the game is balanced.

You could say that about most games, a lot of people never finish their games, never see the endings to stories, never compete in end game boss fights in MMO's, never even see a vast majority of the content of the games they buy. And not a single aspect of that has anything to do with how a game is balanced.

A players lack of skill or determination is irrelevant to this entire conversation.

Games aren't balanced around the players who don't even experience most of the content. It's unclear what point you were even attempting to make as it's off topic to the context.

[Kunovega]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Publicado originalmente por Kunovega:

Yes and? That really has nothing to do with how the game is balanced.

You could say that about most games, a lot of people never finish their games, never see the endings to stories, never compete in end game boss fights in MMO's, never even see a vast majority of the content of the games they buy. And not a single aspect of that has anything to do with how a game is balanced.

A players lack of skill or determination is irrelevant to this entire conversation.

Games aren't balanced around the players who don't even experience most of the content. It's unclear what point you were even attempting to make as it's off topic to the context.

lot of words to say youre an elitist. a vast vast majority of balance changes are geared towards the whole game, with a slight focus towards chimps. otherwise super mines would still suck, and paragons would not exist.

Nothing to do with being an elitist. And none of your examples debunk what I said. Thanks for showing you don't understand anything being discussed.

[ZT Xperimentor]

Publicado originalmente por Kunovega:

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

lot of words to say youre an elitist. a vast vast majority of balance changes are geared towards the whole game, with a slight focus towards chimps. otherwise super mines would still suck, and paragons would not exist.

Nothing to do with being an elitist. And none of your examples debunk what I said. Thanks for showing you don't understand anything being discussed.

You know what happens when a game is balanced around only the tryhard elitists? The game withers and dies; because no casual players want to put up with them, and likewise the 'pros' are frustrated the casuals aren't playing the perfect meta.
Basically every moba that's tried to become an Esport or mainstream has fallen into this redesign trap.

[ZT Xperimentor]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Publicado originalmente por ZT Xperimentor:

You know what happens when a game is balanced around only the tryhard elitists? The game withers and dies; because no casual players want to put up with them, and likewise the 'pros' are frustrated the casuals aren't playing the perfect meta.
Basically every moba that's tried to become an Esport or mainstream has fallen into this redesign trap.

pretty much, do you think the game is truly "balanced" for high level play when spamming stuff like moab mauler, recursive cluster, unstable concoction, etc have all been viable at a time?

No but balance shouldn't be as big of a concern in a cooperative game, but then there's leaderboards and number nudging patches.

[VY Canis Melodis]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

lot of words to say youre an elitist. a vast vast majority of balance changes are geared towards the whole game, with a slight focus towards chimps. otherwise super mines would still suck, and paragons would not exist.

it truly is a 1000 hours plus moment haha

[Kunovega]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Publicado originalmente por VY Canis Melodis:

it truly is a 1000 hours plus moment haha

i've got close to 2-2.5k hours total if you combine my mobile hours too, but im not an elitist fool because i actually have friends that dont play the game much.

Nothing to do with being elitist. The towers are balanced based on the modes of the game, not the number of hours people play. You're just bringing up irrelevant points to act smug.

[Kunovega]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Publicado originalmente por Kunovega:

Nothing to do with being elitist. The towers are balanced based on the modes of the game, not the number of hours people play. You're just bringing up irrelevant points to act smug.

yes, and the modes of the game that most people play are not CHIMPS or competitive events

It doesn't matter, if it's balanced around the hardest mode, then it's even more powerful in the others where you have powers and monkey knowledge to further expand what they can do.

A tower that works in CHIMPS works even better in the other modes where you have more ways to make the game easier from powers, insta monkeys, double cash, etc.

That's what you're failing to understand here.

CHIMPS is the hardest way to play any particular track, if a tower works there then it's going to work anywhere.

You keep calling me an elitist, but it has nothing to do with that. I'm not saying people need to play CHIMPS, I'm saying the towers are balanced for it and thus are even more versatile in the other modes regardless of who is using them.

[Bad Medic Buddy]

Balancing around chimps is a horrible idea, it's probably the least fun gamemode in the game.

[Kusarigama]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

then why are there towers that do not work in chimps at all, or most competitive modes

I go back to my original question. Which towers do NOT work in CHIMPs? Certain towers have been pushed to different metas in which I did provide an example in my 2nd post I believe. I used Tack Zone which used to just dominate as a 2-0-5 and was incredibly cheap. NK decided once again that is not what should happen and wanted people to use 4-2-0 or 4-0-2 depending on your needs. Same thing with Wizard Monkey. Arcane Spike was DOMINATING CHIMPS (even more so OUTSIDE CHIMPS with the MK) and NK pushed people into 0-4-2 into an incredibly viable path.

[Kusarigama]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Is this a rhetorical question, or did you purposefully not unlock every upgrade?

Paragons for one, only function in boss events or sandbox. Then there's Super Mines which is literally unusable in CHIMPS, and was effectively useless until boss events came out. Then you've got Ray of Doom or Flying Fortress, which, while technically both usable in CHIMPs, require certain maps and even then are extremely rarely used.

As for income generation, Banana farms are flat out unusable as well, as is half of Bloon Trap and multiple abilities. Monkey Buccaneer's even have an entire crosspath that is completely unusable in CHIMPS.

Last but certainly not least, you're forgetting that the entirety of Monkey Knowledge, Insta-Monkeys, Powers, etc are all actively balanced or added, yet are completely useless in your "only balanced for" mode.

I understand that you love CHIMPS and feel great about yourself for finishing maps on it, but listing towers that cost so little that you can get them from 0$ between rounds 95-99 is disingenuous and frankly stupid.

I actually do not "love" CHIMPS and the only mode I hate is half-cash. But you get to use all those towers on ALL the other modes and they work fine. I really did not want to mention this but all those "paragons" you yell about. Most people get those with a regrow farm which is an exploit. And yeah in CHIMPS you get no extra INCOME thus the I. Same thing with the M and P. No Monkey Knowledge and P for powers.

I also love that you are still being purposely obtuse. I asked for a specific tower and your going at me with cross-paths. I even explained this that certain towers get pushed into certain metas. You just do not like the meta in CHIMPs which is fine. You have all other modes (11 I think) to goof around in. ALL TOWERS ARE USEFUL IN CHIMPS. So go punch dirt. You have not rebutted anyone in this thread. Even BEN has uses in CHIMPS.

Traps can still actually be useful. It takes away bloons does it not? It just does not give you the Income from it. Engineers became quite useful with the price reductions in the last couple patches.

[Kusarigama]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

You may, in fact, be the most ignorant person I've seen in this community. First off, regrow farming does, in fact, not make ANY extra money. It used to, once upon a time, but not only can you not get any money from regrown children anymore, but money related abilities are capped per round now.

Nah just goes to show I do not exploit. Want to take a stab at my other points since I am so "ignorant"?

[VY Canis Melodis]

i find it funny how this suggestion that should be uncontroversial has caused three pages of 'conversation' about chimps, which isn't even relevant to the original topic since it doesn't use mk

[PichuYang]

Agreed. People should act mature and never light Gwen's Flamethrower at the first place. If people want pop Bloons in different ways, that's what NK balance the towers for. I am sure NK will find a right timing for those 2 towers exclusive MK in future.

[Bad Medic Buddy]

Publicado originalmente por Loki:

Publicado originalmente por Kusarigama:

I go back to my original question. Which towers do NOT work in CHIMPs? Certain towers have been pushed to different metas in which I did provide an example in my 2nd post I believe. I used Tack Zone which used to just dominate as a 2-0-5 and was incredibly cheap. NK decided once again that is not what should happen and wanted people to use 4-2-0 or 4-0-2 depending on your needs. Same thing with Wizard Monkey. Arcane Spike was DOMINATING CHIMPS (even more so OUTSIDE CHIMPS with the MK) and NK pushed people into 0-4-2 into an incredibly viable path.

Is this a rhetorical question, or did you purposefully not unlock every upgrade?

Paragons for one, only function in boss events or sandbox. Then there's Super Mines which is literally unusable in CHIMPS, and was effectively useless until boss events came out. Then you've got Ray of Doom or Flying Fortress, which, while technically both usable in CHIMPs, require certain maps and even then are extremely rarely used.

As for income generation, Banana farms are flat out unusable as well, as is half of Bloon Trap and multiple abilities. Monkey Buccaneer's even have an entire crosspath that is completely unusable in CHIMPS.

Last but certainly not least, you're forgetting that the entirety of Monkey Knowledge, Insta-Monkeys, Powers, etc are all actively balanced or added, yet are completely useless in your "only balanced for" mode.

I understand that you love CHIMPS and feel great about yourself for finishing maps on it, but listing towers that cost so little that you can get them from 0$ between rounds 95-99 is disingenuous and frankly stupid.

Don't forget bottom path alc basically being a detriment. And any ability that costs lives or kicks in with lives lost.

Chimps isn't hard because it presents you a bigger challenge. It challenges you as much as unpoppable and them takes away half your tools.

[Lanosa]

Publicado originalmente por Bad Medic Buddy:

Double HP MOABs is a test of how fast you can put down a middle path Buccaneer or top path Beast Handler.

Then try beat Monkey Meadow without Mermonkey on Double HP :)