Ngl, the Town Center map is a pain in the butt.

[Be Gay, Do Crimes, Smoke Weed!]

For Apopalypse, mainly. I know it's meant to be a pain, but for some reason, this particular one had me going crazy, especially when I've already gotten medals on Hard for the other Easy maps.

Y'all got a map that you have trouble with? One that just seems to test your patience?

[froakielg]

true

[Ninja Zyborg]

dude apopalypse is pain by itself

[PichuYang]

Map Category is divided into Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert. Not Easy, Medium, Hard, Expert. They used B-I-A-E term for reason.

Like within the Expert maps, Dark Castle and Workshop would be less difficult one. But they're still Expert maps for many reasons. One would be the exp scaling for Hero.

So back to Town Center map, you actually have a lot of turn sections. Those turn sections are good way to hit bloons effectively. Like Ice, Tack, Ace, Wizard. I just don't highly recommend Submarine because the top right section is unreachable.

It's easier than Alpine Run and Hedge, I believe.

[DarkMatter]

Originally posted by CatChu:

It's easier than Alpine Run and Hedge, I believe.

Those two map plus Lotus field, are the hardest map in the beginner and for beginners.

What makes Alpine Run and Lotus Field difficult is, it lacks loops in the tracks.

Hedge may lack loops but it has a lot of hair-pin bends. However, line of sight is is what makes it difficult.

Town center may have a few line of sight problem but the map has a couple of hair pins and loops and the very center of the map is most strategic location to place your towers.

What I see a lot in beginner players is their aggressive placement, where towers are placed in the entrance as if they are speed running the game.

A good player analyze the battle field and use it to his advantage.

Just like a good business man always say, "Location, Location, Location"

[DarkMatter]

"Hey Darkmatt3r. How do I know the most strategic place in the map?"

That is easy, it just takea few minutes and a Doctorate on Statistical Analysis.

Pick the map you want to conquer, go to sandbox mode, place the tower you want to use, scatter them all over the map, upgrade all towers using the same upgrade path to eliminate data inconsistencies, send 10 to 20 ghost bloons. After all the ghost bloons makes their exit, check each tower and find the tower with the most damage, that is where you want your tower to placed.

Congratulations, here is your diploma on Bachelor of Science in Bloons popping.

[PichuYang]

Originally posted by DarkMatter:

Those two map plus Lotus field, are the hardest map in the beginner and for beginners.

What I see a lot in beginner players is their aggressive placement, where towers are placed in the entrance as if they are speed running the game.

Remind me of a random coop player who place a 4-2-0 Ninja at Lotus Island's entrance for literally no reason. It's like the round will end faster, ya I believe.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by DarkMatter:

Originally posted by CatChu:

It's easier than Alpine Run and Hedge, I believe.

Those two map plus Lotus field, are the hardest map in the beginner and for beginners.

What makes Alpine Run and Lotus Field difficult is, it lacks loops in the tracks.

Hedge may lack loops but it has a lot of hair-pin bends. However, line of sight is is what makes it difficult.

Town center may have a few line of sight problem but the map has a couple of hair pins and loops and the very center of the map is most strategic location to place your towers.

What I see a lot in beginner players is their aggressive placement, where towers are placed in the entrance as if they are speed running the game.

A good player analyze the battle field and use it to his advantage.

Just like a good business man always say, "Location, Location, Location"

I never saw that as a reason for Hedge to be considered a difficult Easy map.
You can absolutely brute force the win before the first hedge because of how many turns there are. Splash damage and Tack Shooters are so valuable in that situation.
Alpine Run I really struggled with for some reason, at least on Apocalypse/ABR. Dunno what it was about it ><

[PichuYang]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

You can absolutely brute force the win before the first hedge because of how many turns there are. Splash damage and Tack Shooters are so valuable in that situation.

The problem is strategy outside from said one. Remember, we are looking at this from new player's perspective and using various tower choice. After the bloon goes behind the hedge, it is tricky to pop bloons over line of sight. Sniper doesn't work well in this case, and new players don't always invest in Spike Factory. Plus, not every player choose middle section as "kill box" by using towers like Juggernaut.

Ability to pursue escaping bloon is what really influencing the judgement. I have lost on this map's CHIMPS as a Beginner because I don't know what is a better choice to defend first few turns, other than Tack Zone, Sun Avatar and Dark Knight. DDT leaked so easily to behind the hedge. This happened to older patches, where Inferno Ring don't have meteor yet.

I ended up using Alch + Permaspike, but it doesn't mean the map is easy,. Instead, it reflects that it is hard to catch escaped bloons from "kill box", aka hard Beginner map.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by CatChu:

Originally posted by Evilsod:

I never saw that as a reason for Hedge to be considered a difficult Easy map. You can absolutely brute force the win before the first hedge because of how many turns there are.

The problem is any strategy outside from said one. Remember, we are looking at this from new player's perspective and using various tower choice. After the bloon goes behind the hedge, it is tricky to pop bloons over line of sight. Sniper doesn't work well in this case, and new players don't always invest in Spike Factory. Plus, not every player choose middle section as "kill zone" or "pop zone" by using towers like Juggernaut.

Ability to pursue escaping bloon is what really influencing the judgement. I have lost on this map as a Beginner because I don't know what is a better choice to defend first few turns, back in older patches. In older patches, we don't have a lot of tower balancing. Saying that Permaspike is capable to catch leaked bloons doesn't mean the map is easy, when we again, take the "pursue" capability among other Beginner maps.

I get what you're saying, but I guess it depends entirely on what strategy the new player has tunnelled in on tbh. That influences it a lot.
Alpine Run sucks in that sense because only the longest range towers get a shot at the bloons once they pass your initial defence (same with Lotus). If your initial go-to strategy turns out to be "Hey, this first path Helicopter is actually pretty OP!" then you're good to go. Line of sight is irrelevant.

My favourite strategy when I first started playing higher difficulties was Tack Zone every level. That gave me some issues on the likes of Lotus and Alpine because you get one pass and the rest of my defence wasn't good enough. I suppose in hindsight, I did beat Hedge later than the others, so I knew more about what I was doing.

[PichuYang]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

I get what you're saying, but I guess it depends entirely on what strategy the new player has tunnelled in on tbh. That influences it a lot.

Modern Times Group has acquired Ninja Kiwi, which also means possible investment for a competitive BTD Battle 2. What does that mean? Tower usage data.

A data that can study players' behaviour, making corresponding adjustment.

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Alpine Run is hard in that sense because only the longest range towers get a shot at the bloons once they pass your initial defence (same with Lotus). If your initial go-to strategy turns out to be "Hey, this first path Helicopter is actually pretty OP!" then you're good to go.

Alpine Run is supposedly a map to test player's understanding on straight line projectile optimization and encourage the use of "killbox".

Using Apache works for majority of Beginner map, but it also develop a bad habit: Unable to adapt. Which is something that most players don't know and keep tangled by whatever they think it's the only best option.

When I mention line of sight, it is still a considerable thing for beginner to tackle the maps. If more options are tolerable and less punishing on Beginner maps, then it encourages beginners to try out different ones.

That's why this game deserved its spot to be top TD among other TD is because of "adaptability". You're not limited to just use one thing only. Either you are casual, or pro. Not a lot of games can truly achieve that.

[H0LABANANA]

Hey catchu, pbrew commanche doesn't exist anymore. I'm assuming it was just a typo and you meant to say had.

Originally posted by CatChu:

Just like why "Perma-brew Commanche" has to be fixed, why tower balancing

[PichuYang]

Originally posted by H0LABANANA:

Hey catchu, pbrew commanche doesn't exist anymore.

Yes typo, I removed that. I am not a good writer.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by CatChu:

Alpine Run is supposedly a map to test player's understanding on straight line projectile optimization and analyze the "killbox", which is the bottom left triangle section. Using Apache works for majority of Beginner map, but it also develop a bad habit: Unable to adapt.

I mean, you say that, but Apache Prime works on just about any map that doesn't have bloons approaching from multiple lanes at once, or is extremely short. The only thing that really weakens it is corners/curved paths, but even then its still pretty strong. The moment you realise how strong this tower is can change your approach on a lot of maps (unless you feel like doing another strategy).

I'm not disagreeing overall though. Some of the expensive T4 upgrades seem overpriced while some just are. I really don't rate Spectre at all. Apache Dartship on the other hand is very powerful. Appreciating just how strong the more expensive upgrades are isn't all straight forward and they're typically the ones that offer ways around line of sight (including the Arcane Spike as you said).

[H0LABANANA]

Originally posted by CatChu:

Originally posted by H0LABANANA:

Hey catchu, pbrew commanche doesn't exist anymore.

Yes typo, I removed that. I am not a good writer.

It's fine. You're great!

[PichuYang]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

The moment you realise how strong this tower is can change your approach on a lot of maps (unless you feel like doing another strategy).

I really don't rate Spectre at all. Apache Dartship on the other hand is very powerful.

I think Hard Odyssey did a huge impact when they limit players to appreciate other upgrades. Because Apache has a major weakness, is unlike Spectre, Apache is more focused on close-range combat.

Spectre do more damage compared to Dartship in Round 81 - 100, just because of the projectile has high pierce to hit more bloons. Dartship however has the capability to upgrade to Prime, unlike that ridiculous Flying Big Plane. Which is fair.

Apache Prime still suffers on Beginner maps when player don't have extra measure and support for DDT. Which I believe many beginners will not invest MOAB Glue/Sabotage, Alchemist and alternative DDT popping tower. I remember one time a co-op player wanted an Apache Prime on a 4 players co-op Impop, Monkey Meadow, during Round 85. I was stunned bcs we don't have Cash! We still won bcs I carried the game so the greed can finally "agreed" to spend Archmage, lol.

Originally posted by H0LABANANA:

It's fine. You're great!