Looking forward buying this, is it pay to win?

[Misa]

Do you need to grind too much in this game?

[Nodoka]

Whoever considers BTD6 pay to win has no idea what they are talking about. Or are either bad at the game or just clueless in general.

[the.goosh222]

Publicado originalmente por Genesis:

You guys are so delusional it's not even funny anymore. Being able to pay real money to get stuff faster than other people and stuff other people can never get= pay to win, period.

If you wanna be in denial go ahead.

This definition is unworkably broad. It's basically saying that any transaction that doesn't just affect cosmetics is pay to win. Under this rule, something like DLC that grants new content usable in the main campaign means that game is pay to win. That's one example that already puts a ton of games under a name that feels very wrong for them.
BTD6 has a similar thing going on. You can buy an easy mode the game wasn't designed around at all. Powers and Double Cash are effectively harmless toys. They're not at all comparable to the aggressive pay to win mechanics people use that word for.

[Hiroko]

Publicado originalmente por Genesis:

Idk why people say it's not pay to win, it literally is.

The hate from p2w comes from when its required to progress or stay competitive in a reasonable way. Thats not the case here, so it falls into this grey area where its not associated with the general hate that phrase inspires.

With one exception. One thing thats better than a cash drop and applies every game and can only be bought with real money. But hey it doesn't work on chimps anyway and I'd rather it help fund game updates than not be there. Doesn't make my game any worse.

[the.goosh222]

Publicado originalmente por Genesis:

Publicado originalmente por the.goosh222:

This definition is unworkably broad. It's basically saying that any transaction that doesn't just affect cosmetics is pay to win. Under this rule, something like DLC that grants new content usable in the main campaign means that game is pay to win. That's one example that already puts a ton of games under a name that feels very wrong for them.
BTD6 has a similar thing going on. You can buy an easy mode the game wasn't designed around at all. Powers and Double Cash are effectively harmless toys. They're not at all comparable to the aggressive pay to win mechanics people use that word for.

Dude I can literally buy double cash and monkey money right now and instawin every single map on every difficulty other than chimps. Stop being delusional please.

Being able to place 10 supermonkeys round 1 on every map and getting double cash isn't a small advantage.

It's a huge advantage indeed, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the binary "do you need it" factor which is a solid no. Not from a skill perspective, it's not impossibly hard without cheese. Not even looking at it through a time perspective, as you can acquire Monkey Knowledge Points and Monkey Money quick enough that it's no issue. Or really, it's in tune with the pacing of the game. You get stuff when you need it. Nobody defines pay to win by whether you can, it's by whether you should.

[the.goosh222]

I think I've found the root of the issue. Pay to win came from and is pretty much always used to describe competitive multiplayer games, something BTD6 is definitely not. Anything you can buy that gives you an obvious advantage is pretty glaring in competitive multiplayer. That doesn't really translate to a single player/cooperative game. This is why I think the definition for a game like BTD6 strays from the standard one.

Publicado originalmente por Genesis:

If it takes me over 100 hours to get full monkey knowledge upgrades and someone did it in less than half of that time because he paid real money, what do you call that? I guess he just had superior skill, nothing to do with paying to gain an advantage at all.

We can see this here. Yeah, another player was able to progress faster. So what? They can't use that as competitive leverage when interacting with other players. What thy actually paid to win at is the part nobody cares about: chipping away at easy medals on easy maps, something they could've done at a similar pace either way. The effect is negligible.

[PichuYang]

First of all, BTD6 is never designed for Double Cash mode.
This is due to the bad experience of having "free" Double Cash mode in BTD5 Steam, even though there is Mastery mode, but it doesn't promote a good gaming environment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BTD5/comments/8abxrx/was_really_enjoying_this_game_until_i_read_about/
I think it's the necessity of it. It's such a power spike hidden behind a paywall with no real drawbacks.
That's because you are on the lesser version of BTD5, Mobile. Come play steam version, all the stuff behind paywalls is buyable with monkey money.
"with no real drawbacks" Woah.

----------
So let's say in BTD6, is there any drawback? Yes:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/960090/discussions/0/3115896179325616751/
See post #9 to #13. PS: I am only showing evidence, doesn't mean I am attacking any player.

The OP has problem on beating Half Cash mode even with Double Cash mode on. Why?
"with no real drawbacks" I don't think so. This is a serious drawback.

Because the whole game itself is never designed for Double Cash mode, or having an alternate mode to fit into "free" Double Cash mode":
https://www.reddit.com/r/btd6/comments/8r4sdc/the_effects_of_double_cash_mode/
The OP wrote the whole thread because CHIMPS mode was not dominant at that time, however, it is still worth to read.

The developer said that the whole game isn't designed for Double Cash mode. What does that mean with that high price of DC mode?

It is a way to support developer, not a proper way to play the game.
Continuing to argue DC mode is P2W won't change anything, because if you try to fit a giant beach ball into a small basketball hoop, it won't work.

This game is heavily designed based on how player perceive a tower's value. It isn't just I put this tower 4 | 2, and that tower 2 | 4. It's more than that.
------------

How about Monkey Knowledge? It is a more balanced counterpart for BTD5 Steam DC mode. You get something rewarding based on your action, that don't completely ruin your normal gameplay, and still being able to adapt CHIMPS mode. Which is much fair, more fun, and most importantly, doesn't heavily promote a negative gaming environment.

I hope I make these clear to the OP. That's all I will say.

[Hiroko]

Beach balls are actually very capable of being squeezed through slightly smaller hoops. Much like its more aggressive cousins, the ones caked in mud and allowed to harder become more firm, requiring multiple hits to pop - i mean squeeze through a hoop.

[PichuYang]

Publicado originalmente por Hiroko:

Beach balls are actually very capable of being squeezed through slightly smaller hoops. Much like its more aggressive cousins, the ones caked in mud and allowed to harder become more firm, requiring multiple hits to pop - i mean squeeze through a hoop.

That's sound interesting, looks like I used a bad comparison. Lmao.

[twoxsp]

Who is giving every other comment in this thread a reward?

[Atari]

Publicado originalmente por twoxsp:

Who is giving every other comment in this thread a reward?

Pretty sure that is the very nice topic creator. Although I'm pretty sure Steam doesn't show who gives an award so unless the person giving them away tells then it'll remain a mystery.

[jtbjones]

Publicado originalmente por Genesis:

Idk why people say it's not pay to win, it literally is. It doesn't make it a bad game though.

If you can skip the grind, get a bonus normal players can't and spam powers other people would have to grind for, that is the definition of pay to win.

Don't listen to this person, they're probably just bad at the game. Nothing about this game is pay to win. Only little kids use real money for the powers and stuff (Honestly I think this is the main purpose of powers).

[Evilsod]

Publicado originalmente por jtbjones:

Publicado originalmente por Genesis:

Idk why people say it's not pay to win, it literally is. It doesn't make it a bad game though.

If you can skip the grind, get a bonus normal players can't and spam powers other people would have to grind for, that is the definition of pay to win.

Don't listen to this person, they're probably just bad at the game. Nothing about this game is pay to win. Only little kids use real money for the powers and stuff (Honestly I think this is the main purpose of powers).

Yeah, I really don't get why he's so adamant. This is not the type of game that 'Pay to Win' really applies to, nor is it Freemium.

Yes, you can blitz through (almost) everything if you pay for all the Monkey Knowledge, Double Cash and spam powers on literally every level, but if you're going to do that, why the hell did you even buy the game? That removes any possible challenge the game could have to the point I don't understand how it would even be fun anymore.

About the only thing I can think of are Races... but can you even use powers and x2$ in those?

[the.goosh222]

Publicado originalmente por Evilsod:

Publicado originalmente por jtbjones:

Don't listen to this person, they're probably just bad at the game. Nothing about this game is pay to win. Only little kids use real money for the powers and stuff (Honestly I think this is the main purpose of powers).

Yeah, I really don't get why he's so adamant. This is not the type of game that 'Pay to Win' really applies to, nor is it Freemium.

Yes, you can blitz through (almost) everything if you pay for all the Monkey Knowledge, Double Cash and spam powers on literally every level, but if you're going to do that, why the hell did you even buy the game? That removes any possible challenge the game could have to the point I don't understand how it would even be fun anymore.

About the only thing I can think of are Races... but can you even use powers and x2$ in those?

Indeed, you can't use them for races. And I really agree that that person's stance was... weird. They said they like BTD6 and play it plenty, so why did they have to go to such great lengths to give it a bad name? I don't see the purpose in using a loose, flexibly defined word with a negative connotation like it's scientific and precise to describe a good game, one pretty intuitively not that bad thing. It's a pointless stretch. At least OP definitely saw an overwhelming majority of people agree BTD6 isn't pay to win.

[EK]

Publicado originalmente por Misa:

Do you need to grind too much in this game?

I beat every single map on easy/medium and big majority of hard maps, without spending a cent.

[Hiroko]

Publicado originalmente por the.goosh222:

They said they like BTD6 and play it plenty, so why did they have to go to such great lengths to give it a bad name?

Just trying to be technically right, I think? Not giving btd6 a bad name. 'p2w' gets thrown around so much in a bad way, like some other phrases that aren't inherently bad. ie "try-hard" is actually just a measure of effort put in, and giving more effort is generally a good thing. Can't blame him losing his cool a bit. Theres always some one giving the technically-right answer and other people giving varying degrees of socially accepted meanings - ie the grey area. Its always an argument. Its a touchy subject and people just don't want to hear anything counter to their point of view on a subject that triggers them. Its equally triggering when you are making a point of being technically correct, but are either horribly misunderstood or flat out refuted by some random 'no your wrong stupid' type.