Dartling Gun, why did they ruin it?

[mut0rcs]

I really don't understand, why they make them move it so slowly. Know it's official unsuable on coop. It's even a ♥♥♥♥ on solo but on coop it's like to play a laggy-game.

Why the hell do you made the dartling gun slow ? It's a shame it was not available on BTD6 but it's even more a shame, you ruin the great tower by making the ability (moveable) useless.

And then you even make it more useless, when you use not the third upgrade path. It's like a punch in all the faces, who waited for the dartling gun. It's really funny how you made this tower since BTD5 Flash version worse and worse and know it's completly useless trash.

[mut0rcs]

I think you all never played in Coop when you say it's a good (or a usefull/usable) tower. It's completly useless. You can't move it, its really laggy. it's often a little bit laggy in coop (you just don't realise it because the bloons are only moving a little bit slower). But in combination with the slow moving Dartling Gun it's really laggy, like a delay.

And no... it's not the computer. It's probably the distance between the players which increases the ping.

And it's not only a problem, when i take (once) the dartling gun. Now everyone take it and they can't move it (for sure they can't) fast enough in coop because of the laggy handling.

The fact, they made the Dartling Gun less strong is another thing. The ability of the DG was, that you can controll the tower. it was the only tower (the heli follows only your mouse, but you can't say who he gonna attack exactly). now because of the slow moving it's (especially on high rounds) nearly impossible to follow the bloons exactly.

and because of making it moving faster only on path 3, they make the other 2 paths less usefull.

For sure you wan't to have a balanced game, but they destroy the main ability of this tower. They made the controlling useless. It's not my point, they can't hit a lot of bloons anymore (like before). the point is, their major ability is now gone.

[CrescentMouse]

Escrito originalmente por mut0rcs:

I think you all never played in Coop when you say it's a good (or a usefull/usable) tower. It's completly useless. You can't move it, its really laggy. it's often a little bit laggy in coop (you just don't realise it because the bloons are only moving a little bit slower). But in combination with the slow moving Dartling Gun it's really laggy, like a delay.

And no... it's not the computer. It's probably the distance between the players which increases the ping.

And it's not only a problem, when i take (once) the dartling gun. Now everyone take it and they can't move it (for sure they can't) fast enough in coop because of the laggy handling.

The fact, they made the Dartling Gun less strong is another thing. The ability of the DG was, that you can controll the tower. it was the only tower (the heli follows only your mouse, but you can't say who he gonna attack exactly). now because of the slow moving it's (especially on high rounds) nearly impossible to follow the bloons exactly.

and because of making it moving faster only on path 3, they make the other 2 paths less usefull.

For sure you wan't to have a balanced game, but they destroy the main ability of this tower. They made the controlling useless. It's not my point, they can't hit a lot of bloons anymore (like before). the point is, their major ability is now gone.

I usually only play coop, and I hardly lag. It's also pretty good even with swivel speed lowered, besides most people just lock it anyways. It's what people did in BTD 5 too. It's much better locked then controlled.

[mut0rcs]

Then you have maybe more players in your region than i have. Other players have the problem too.

It's ok (still much worse than in btd5) when i play solo. but in coop it's impossible.

And no, o dont have bad internet connections. Testet it already. Either its the ping (which is always high, when you play with people from far away) or their connection is bad or maybe their phone (nearly every compputer can handle it and im playing on a far good enough pc).

So it is a problem. Maybe i make a video, then you see it.

[Reformatio]

It should not just be a better sniper, but the way it works now is pretty underwhelming. What I hate most is that certain arms stop at the cursors postition instead of going on infinitely.

[PichuYang]

Dartling Gun is a pretty-balanced comeback with justifiable upgrades. I won't say it is perfect, but it does make games significantly easier. It is still not a starter tower if Knowledge is absent.

Your issue lies more on the Coop side, which should be another story.
But solo wise, the Swivel mechanic is pretty reasonable, otherwise ability to hit camo as well would make BTD6 a BTD5 game. (Too OP easy)

Escrito originalmente por Ykario:

Well, it has gone from OP in BTD5 to Balanced in BTD6.

Every path got it's use, the swivel speed isn't even close to being a problem, if you know how to place your towers. Same for the Third Path. Yeah, it loses range. But it's the strongest path, really. Easy to buff (Alch buff it "more" than the others due to it's slower fire rate), it's relatively cheap.

This community seems to be used to getting hand fed, I swear.

The Tower is one of the strongest, the upgrades cost a lot, but are strong AF. I don't see the problem, for real.

If you are complaining the Swivel mechanic in Coop, it has to come back to the stability in Coop mode. But solo wise, it is a fine tower.

[mut0rcs]

The Dartling Gun was only very good in the BTD5 flash version. In the Steam version it was weaker. Sadly the flash version was crap because of crashing.

But anyway, so you call sun god also op because it's strong?

But anyway2: I actually have no problem with the damage in BTD6 (so at least the 5/2/0 and 2/5/0). But again: The ability of this tower is controlling it. Without swivel the tower is much worse (and even with it it's slower/ more delayed than in btd5). It's not the thing, it can hit camo or not. My problem is only the controlling.

If you play in fast it's difficult to follow the faster bloons, especially on difficult angle. It's only about the movement and in my opionion this should not be in the upgrade path. the movement is like the actual point of this tower. It's a artificial deterioration. It's not less damage to make it not to op. It's just not following your mouse correctly because it's laggy. imagin you playing a shooter and the weapon movement is delayed.

and i tested this tower on sandbox. the third upgrade path is useless for high rounds. And 5/2/0 is stronger than 5/0/2. Camo is nice, but the x/2/x makes the tower stronger and not the x/1/x.

And in Coop it's just 1000 times worse because of the lag. And there is actually no strong lag.

[CrescentMouse]

Escrito originalmente por mut0rcs:

The Dartling Gun was only very good in the BTD5 flash version. In the Steam version it was weaker. Sadly the flash version was crap because of crashing.

But anyway, so you call sun god also op because it's strong?

But anyway2: I actually have no problem with the damage in BTD6 (so at least the 5/2/0 and 2/5/0). But again: The ability of this tower is controlling it. Without swivel the tower is much worse (and even with it it's slower/ more delayed than in btd5). It's not the thing, it can hit camo or not. My problem is only the controlling.

If you play in fast it's difficult to follow the faster bloons, especially on difficult angle. It's only about the movement and in my opionion this should not be in the upgrade path. the movement is like the actual point of this tower. It's a artificial deterioration. It's not less damage to make it not to op. It's just not following your mouse correctly because it's laggy. imagin you playing a shooter and the weapon movement is delayed.

and i tested this tower on sandbox. the third upgrade path is useless for high rounds. And 5/2/0 is stronger than 5/0/2. Camo is nice, but the x/2/x makes the tower stronger and not the x/1/x.

And in Coop it's just 1000 times worse because of the lag. And there is actually no strong lag.

Okay but you're rarely ever controlling it constantly, the swivel is perfectly fine. Personally I've never had lag in co-op so I can't say for when it's laggy but most people just put it in locked mode and leave it there, occasionally activating emergency mode. Which quickens the swivel immediately.

[mut0rcs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JOzl-eONaI&feature=youtu.be

Here you can see it. The first link is in solo mode. It has still a delay. it's an unnecessary restriction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs8woZw4eoo&feature=youtu.be

Here you can see the real hard lag/delay in coop. how you can see my computer can handle that with no problem. But also there is actually no really much lag in the game (look at the bloons). I place the dartling gun pretty much at the end. When i place it, the game lags a little bit but that's nothing special.

But then look at my mouse cursor and compare it with the movement of the d-gun. And remember, the game itself is not really laggy in my opinion. And in coop mode it's always on fast mode, so it's even worse with the lag.

So while the game (bloons) are not laggy, the d-gun is very laggy. And this happens also to other players i see in the coop. Their d-gun is very laggy while the bloons itselve are not laggy.

Edit: I answer later i have to go now.

[mut0rcs]

So actually there should be an developer answer here. This is not playable and they should fix that problem. This problem is probably caused by this slow moving controlling. if it would be like in btd5 it would probably not lag/delay that hard in coop.

so what are you gonna to do ninja kiwi?

[CrescentMouse]

Escrito originalmente por mut0rcs:

So actually there should be an developer answer here. This is not playable and they should fix that problem. This problem is probably caused by this slow moving controlling. if it would be like in btd5 it would probably not lag/delay that hard in coop.

so what are you gonna to do ninja kiwi?

It's playable. I have proof, I can play it, and it's pretty good.

[Illius]

Escrito originalmente por Wesco:

Upgrades cost too much for what they offer, it was good in btd5 but in btd6 there are so many better option for the same amount of money.

3xx (4590$) and 4xx (11880$) a total of 16390$ and can't even hit the purple bloons.

x3x (5670$) the best path... or the less worst path... is overall decent but again better option for the price

i remenber people complaining about the heli "fast darts" upgrade being useless and it is just 250$.... well with the dartling xx3 you need to spend 4320$ and the tower still can't hit the lead, lose a lot of range and attack speed.... basically 4320$ to watch all the pink and yellow pass...

xx4 (12960$) I never liked the manual aim so this is my favourite upgrade but... well... the dartling 024 cost a total of 21055$ and still need the support for the lead... not the best choice.

I... don't like these arguments.

Super Monkey at with any Plasmabolts+ can't hit purple bloons, AND you need to get to 2xx minimum to damage lead. And that's already $8000 to get that far. And no matter how you upgrade you'll still never hit purple bloons either way.

...that's the point of bloon varieties: So 1 tower isn't perfect.

[Sir Protagonist]

Even if this was a massive issue, I don't think making the swivel speed infinite would "fix" dartling in co op. There is always going to be lag, with it and while making swivel infinite would speed it up, you will still be limited by the connection you have and the connection of other players, which is always going to be a problem with micro intensive towers in co op. Kinda like how you have to hover your mouse around farms until the server knows you've collected your nanners, motars requiring an extra shot or two before they update targeting, and heli's lagging behind your mouse. Even if all of these were instant interactions, you'll still need to wait for the server to get the information you've sent it.

As for why the bloons don't appear to lag on your end, im not a NK employee, nor I have really looked into how co op even works so I can't answer for sure, but I would assume the bloons position is handled client side, so 0 lag, and gets updated whenever the server sends a message that X bloon has popped. Dartling, as well as most if not all towers would need to be server side in order to be able to accurately then send info to clients.

[CrescentMouse]

Escrito originalmente por Illius:

Escrito originalmente por Wesco:

Upgrades cost too much for what they offer, it was good in btd5 but in btd6 there are so many better option for the same amount of money.

3xx (4590$) and 4xx (11880$) a total of 16390$ and can't even hit the purple bloons.

x3x (5670$) the best path... or the less worst path... is overall decent but again better option for the price

i remenber people complaining about the heli "fast darts" upgrade being useless and it is just 250$.... well with the dartling xx3 you need to spend 4320$ and the tower still can't hit the lead, lose a lot of range and attack speed.... basically 4320$ to watch all the pink and yellow pass...

xx4 (12960$) I never liked the manual aim so this is my favourite upgrade but... well... the dartling 024 cost a total of 21055$ and still need the support for the lead... not the best choice.

I... don't like these arguments.

Super Monkey at with any Plasmabolts+ can't hit purple bloons, AND you need to get to 2xx minimum to damage lead. And that's already $8000 to get that far. And no matter how you upgrade you'll still never hit purple bloons either way.

...that's the point of bloon varieties: So 1 tower isn't perfect.

Yea it prevented people from doing just Wizard Monkeys in BTD5, a fairly popular strat since you covered every weakness for only like. 1500, around there.

[mut0rcs]

Escrito originalmente por Sir Protagonist:

Even if this was a massive issue, I don't think making the swivel speed infinite would "fix" dartling in co op. There is always going to be lag, with it and while making swivel infinite would speed it up, you will still be limited by the connection you have and the connection of other players, which is always going to be a problem with micro intensive towers in co op. Kinda like how you have to hover your mouse around farms until the server knows you've collected your nanners, motars requiring an extra shot or two before they update targeting, and heli's lagging behind your mouse. Even if all of these were instant interactions, you'll still need to wait for the server to get the information you've sent it.

As for why the bloons don't appear to lag on your end, im not a NK employee, nor I have really looked into how co op even works so I can't answer for sure, but I would assume the bloons position is handled client side, so 0 lag, and gets updated whenever the server sends a message that X bloon has popped. Dartling, as well as most if not all towers would need to be server side in order to be able to accurately then send info to clients.

So why it works then perfectly on BTD5 coop?

[Sir Protagonist]

Escrito originalmente por mut0rcs:

So why it works then perfectly on BTD5 coop?

I haven't played BTD5 co op myself, nor seen much of it so i'll assume it works perfectly, and id assume its because the net code would have towers calculated client side. There are advantages and disadvantages for calculating these things on the server, and on the client. Although one thing to note is that its really really difficult to switch the math around once its set. Like, delete majority of source code for co op and a lot of btd6 in general and start again kind of difficult.

again im not an NK employee, nor have I sat down and tried reverse engineering or reading source code for either mode, so could be very wrong on this.