Monkey Knowledge now requires money

[Kazuli]

This has to be the worst addition ever. This literally just screams of trying to force people into microtransactions. trying to put those in a game we've already paid for is just terrible. Please don't make this an EA game.

[Zowieanna Zanthia™]

I agree, I used 2 Knowledge points and both costing me $500 MM each and then you have the last Knowledge points to apply costing us now $1000 mm. If you got this game over a year ago and managed to upgrade the full skill tree, then your safe from spending that hard earned MM.

It is a grind to earn the MM with out having to pay real money. Its still an enjoyable game, would be even more enjoyable with out this newest update and change.

I wanted to save my MM for buying powers and insta monkeys when needed, its a slow grind for the MM, I wont be ever paying any real money, I bought the game and thats enough for me.

[My Name is Mud]

I have $30K cash with everything but a handful of knowledge points unlocked and that's not even unusual for people that play regularly. Stop whining and actually run some maps. The game self-generates such a massive surplus of cash that it's unreal how many of you are still going on about this.

[Kazuli]

Originally posted by Death From Above:

I have $30K cash with everything but a handful of knowledge points unlocked and that's not even unusual for people that play regularly. Stop whining and actually run some maps. The game self-generates such a massive surplus of cash that it's unreal how many of you are still going on about this.

uh-oh, we got a god defender here. Stop defending scummy buisness practices and P2W buisness models. The reason people are "still going on about this" is because you are literally paying for an in-game advantage. you already had to grind to level up for knowledge points. now the fact you also have to pay more to get them is absurd and follows the same dumbass logic as 95% of what you see on mobile games.

Putting microtransactions in a game you've already paid for is ♥♥♥♥ and scummy. But what do i know? i just need to "git gud" like you don't I?

[Vertex]

You have to level up to get monkey knowledge anyways. When you level up, you'll have enough monkey cash from map rewards to pay for the upgrades. This is not really a microtransaction.

It makes the game more balanced if anything because you can't finish off multiple tech trees anymore, until you've beaten enough maps and have a tangible purpose for the upgrades. I don't know why anyone would transact honestly, it makes the game overpowered and easy to beat.

[CaptainPOCK]

How is it more balanced if you have to pay twice for something? Monkey Money already is required somewhere for newer players, it's called getting heroes. You may argue that you don't need all heroes, but getting heroes is pretty much half of the game. So is monkey knowledge. So instead of giving me the ability to get one of them the one way, and the other the other way, I now have to farm levels and more monkey money just to be able to max my character out? Just noting that all I was able to get so far were Benjamin and Pat Fusty. That's it. If I would account all the monkey knowledge I have already assigned and convert it, I'd neither have the two, nor all of the upgrades.

Balancing is about getting the statistics right, not to artificially prolong the progress to make people keep playing your game for longer and longer. If anything, it will discourage players.

Look at the older games. Simple as they were. Bloons Tower Defense 5 was already becoming a progression focused game.

[Vertex]

Originally posted by Peri (Nightsky):

How is it more balanced if you have to pay twice for something?

You don't have to pay twice for monkey knowledge if you reset. Once an upgrade is unlocked, the monkey monkey cash requirement is removed for it permanently.

Originally posted by Peri (Nightsky):

You may argue that you don't need all heroes, but getting heroes is pretty much half of the game.

Quincy will work fine for all the beginner maps. I won them all on impoppable without having to change my hero. It's ridiculousness what some of the unlockable heros like churchill can do.

It's more balanced not letting new players have them on beginner maps. You can win round 100 with 4 towers. However, the advanced maps are more complex and require them to win anything.

[CaptainPOCK]

You are practically paying for leveling up. That would be the first game I know of that would make use of that. Yes, I am aware it's not directly paying for leveling up. But this feels like you have to pay for making use of what you obtained for free, basically. What you worked for.

Despite me having roughly 40+ Monkey Knowledge assigned, I don't feel myself being stupidly overpowered or being able to now literally beat any map. And the only 'overpowered' thing that comes to my mind is the temple of the vengeful monkey god and the monkey bank storage increase. And maybe, just maybe the double crossbow master upgrade. But that's in my opinion it. The rest is noticeable but not game breaking.

And yes, it's possible to beat the game without any hero. It's also possible to beat any map without knowledge. Both are not necessary, hence why is it necessary to balance out a core function of the game by letting you farm for experience and having to decide whether you want to spend monkey money on upgrades or heroes?

Point is, this change was unnecessary, and adds another barrier to the game that no one has asked for. I scrolled back 10 pages here and a few pages on the official Ninjakiwi forums. No one asked for it or complained about monkey knowledge being too overpowered.

[Vertex]

When you get to level 80, you'll have to choose between which upgrade trees you max out first. Instead of skipping to the bottom of all of them and picking out all the strong upgrades.

I was level 110 unfortunately before they released this change. I'm having a breeze now beating all the intermediate maps on impoppable with my hero and a handful of important towers.

This change is absolutely necessary to add more monkey knowledge in future updates. The choice element of where you spend monkey cash early on is an important balance mechanism. However, late game you can earn up to 120k and will have a virtually unlimited amount.

[NimrodAbsolution⁧⁧98]

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

The choice element of where you spend monkey cash early on is an important balance mechanism.

A choice you can skip entirely.
I've got a balance idea: remove all IAP for MM.

[CaptainPOCK]

By adding more uses for Monkey Money, you also add more ways to skip progression for those who pay real money. Is that bad? No. But unfair to those who don't have that luxury.

Several of your statements are diminished by some monkey towers being simply very powerful. I can count you up one right off the bat: Druid x-4-2 - Combine that with some low-tier banana farms and you have cash generation of the highest tier. And the fastest I've got that covered was wave 52. No use of power ups or items. Just playing regularly. After that, cash was no longer an issue and I was able to get 4 very powerful T-5 monkeys. BAD-bloon was gone in an instant.

You see, you can easily cheese-win this game without Monkey knowledge. It's a nice addition though to further empower some monkeys you have. Even if it sometimes empowers the wrong ones in the wrong ways.

[Vertex]

You can't spam banana farms and get tons of cash before round 100 on more complex maps. Building 4 T5s for a BAD is very inefficient. A single skystriker with alchemist and jungle drums can take care of that on most beginner/intermediate maps.

This is where monkey knowledge comes in to offset the complexity of advanced maps. As you inferred, skipping progression for beginner maps is pointless. Thanks for summing that up nicely. There's lots of room to just spam banana farms and waste money on 4 T5s for a single bloon type.

[Halfshell]

Originally posted by ;1750147885667813457:

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

The choice element of where you spend monkey cash early on is an important balance mechanism.

A choice you can skip entirely.
I've got a balance idea: remove all IAP for MM.

I'd second this, solves the whole debacle and ties it with a neat bow. Maybe let somethings be buyable directly if they are set on selling stuff. Such as buying all heroes, skins or tons of powers.

[mdart]

ok as someone who has to go though all of the trees still just hit 90 today i gotta say that i am fine with it costing mm and dont see it as a way to push money out of us all it does is push us to do things diffrently like going into 3 points magic for the 10% mm and then just do maps you have not done and bisides with out the mm mk you still get more then enough mm to get all tree upgraded and all heroes

[CaptainPOCK]

Let's break your whole contradictions down...

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

This change is absolutely necessary to add more monkey knowledge in future updates.

Ninjakiwi can do this regardless of whether it costs monkey money or not. As I mentioned, this cost only adds another 'barrier' for the progression part to artificially lengthen the time you need to obtain something. Nothing is mandatory, but for those that want to explore the game or just play it casually it just prevents you from exploring the fun parts of this game.

You want a hero but also a specific upgrade? Before, it was possible to get the one and the other. Yes, it still is possible, but lengthened. And for what reason? No, really. For what reason was that added? Can hardly be balance because balance comes from the skills themselves, not how fast you can obtain them. There is no difference in getting it after 10 hours of play time, or 50 hours. What merely matters is how well that specific skill is balanced. And if it's balance sucks, re-balance it. A cost doesn't adjust it.

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

This is where monkey knowledge comes in to offset the complexity of advanced maps. As you inferred, skipping progression for beginner maps is pointless.

Beginner and intermediate maps are easy regardless. So are advanced and expert maps. You know what makes the difference? Strategy. The whole point of a tower defense game. Sure, you can senselessly deploy towers around and hope that it works. Or you can learn the towers, learn their abilities, learn their strengths and weaknesses and cancel the weaknesses out with other towers. Monkey knowledge adds convenience to it, or empowers a specific tower. But what if this specific tower is useless on another map? What then? I've seen enough maps where using improved tack shooters was useless because you didn't cover enough area with them.

Whether you beat an expert map or not depends on how well you know the towers you have. That's it. Sure, you can beat the game by ONLY using dart monkeys, or ONLY using bomb shooters. That's what makes strategy in this game a little less relevant, because many monkeys can now take the role of everything by just taking different upgrades.

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

You have to level up to get monkey knowledge anyways. When you level up, you'll have enough monkey cash from map rewards to pay for the upgrades.

Early on, so where the monkey money actually matters, you level up faster than you can gain the money. I can remember being annoyed by the level up message because I was so annoyed by it popping up all the time up to level 70 or something. Where it slowly but surely got less but still annoyed me. Again, the heroes I was able to afford so far were Pat Fusty and Benjamin. Which - if I remember correctly - should add up to a total of $6.000. How many low and mid-tier upgrades would that be? I have 50 monkey knowledge points now, so calculate it. Every computer comes with a calculator installed.

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

When you get to level 80, you'll have to choose between which upgrade trees you max out first. Instead of skipping to the bottom of all of them and picking out all the strong upgrades.

You see where the issue lies right here, right? Right now, I am forced to take low tier upgrades, at best mid-tier. If I was a new player, that is. I might not even use 50% of the towers I get upgrades for. Even now I rarely use glue gunner despite having all the upgrades for it. Sure, it's great. It just doesn't fit into any of my own personal strategies. Which, again, is the only point that matters here.

If most of the low tier and mid-tier upgrades were generally applicant to all the types of a specific tower section, I'd not mind this change. But most of the upgrades - as far as I remember from seeing earlier today - are tower specific. I already adjusted my strategies a lot in order to include maxed out towers. But I failed to include some of them because either others already took that job, did it better or were generally powerful enough to not be reliant on those.

This is where the word balance comes in again. Depicting T-5 towers as generally bad for BAD bloons, sure, your call. I found this strategy to work, and I found it to work well. If that is not your taste, go ahead. I don't care how many dart monkeys you rather place instead. If I want to win a map, I win it. It's as simple as that. And the reason why I'm not even playing this game actively is due to the actual grind I have to put into it. And I have a feeling it will get worse with a potential BTD7.

Long story short: Monkey money requirement did nothing except annoying those who don't have it, and encourage those who already made use of the stated strategy to not go ahead and reset it. You put cliffs between players, cliffs that no one needs. We had that already thanks to a bug where people were able to get virtually infinite insta monkeys, and didn't get them removed. Now some people run around with 100+ insta monkeys for super monkey, and others have to work semi-hard for them.

Maybe that brings a bit of a depiction into your view of how you look at this. Don't look at yourself, but at the grand player base.

[Smokey]

Can't imagine replaying same maps hundreds of times to be a fun thing ^^
You would still be miles away after beating every level on any difficulty = happy grinding

edit: game is first really 100% balanced after you unlocked everything! Thats just how its been designed, else there would be no need to spend several weeks tweaking each monkey/skill/ability close to perfect