Having read up on combat system and classes, how is this game a 90/92% on steam?

[Ketamarine]

I'm just baffled as I played the OG secret of mana probably 5 times through and the combat is WAY better in that game from the 90s. Spells, weapons to master, combo moves.

Like the first 8-10 hours you have ZERO abilities to use and from some forum posts you maybe get a handful more throughout the game?

Makes no sense to me as the core gameplay loop of this game is story beats (which are OK i guess?) and walking around in areas and dungeons and fighting mobs.

Playing qith Riesz and she has ZERO abilities 10 hours in, Angela has 2 spells and Kevin has ZERO.

Like what am I missing here?

Thinking of abandoning my run as it's just not a compelling gameplay loop.

[Melodia]

Have you been using your job points?
Plus if you're 10 hours in I assume you haven't gotten to the first Mana Crystal yet, which will allow you to upgrade your job.

[Martial Autist]

OG secret of mana was fun but also a bit rough around the edges. Think of it as a blueprint for what would be this game's original version. That game did frontload magic a little more because it just had 2 set roles and the only progression was spirit acquisition. In the second game however you start with more of a slow burn, and you will be developing your characters over the course of the playthrough. I will go over some changes both from the original snes sequel and the more recent remake, and try to explain what changed and what you can expect going forward. Lets start with character growth.

In seiken densetsu 3 every character has multiple classes, and those classes determine what kind of supportive or offensive magic they can learn. The initial class change determines the character's archetype, and the second change improves it further in different ways. There's class level[lh3.googleusercontent.com]1, 2 and 3, with a light path and a dark path each character can follow. Class 1 is your starting character, the equivalent of the boy from the first game. Class 2 consists of the initial light and dark classes, like how the girl and sprite had their own 'kit'. And class 3 consists of light>light, light>dark, dark>light, and dark>dark. Think of these ones as girl+ and sprite+. Given that there are 6 characters now, that makes for a total of 24 possible level 3 classes. This adds a lot of variation, and offers a lot of potential synergy between party members depending on your choices.

The remake in particular further expanded upon this with the skill point system which lets you learn many passive abilities which you can equip a total of 8 of, which also changes based on your chosen classes. Some are also gotten by interacting with certain NPC's, passing certain points in the story, or beating certain bosses. So while some of the abilities you are finding/learning are a bit weak at the moment, further into the game you will get way stronger ones. There is even an option to respec if you want to adjust your build (say for a specific fight, after a class change, or just feel like you made a mistake. Down to reverting class changes and picking entirely different routes. It also added class level 4.

Regarding combat. The second game polished it by giving characters an attack string instead of a single hit, and you now fill up the charge meter naturally by hitting enemies and then unleash it at a moment of your choosing. Each new charge level is unlocked with a class change, this is basically where the weapon levels went. The remake further improved upon this by adding heavy attacks and a basic combo system. So now you can end your attack string with a heavy at different points for different finishers. One for knocking enemies prone, one for AoE, and one for more damage. With additional finishers unlocked as you class change. It also added different inputs for different charge attacks, so you can manage the meter better. And a new charge attack that comes with the new class 4.

The sequel basically refined what worked well in the first game. While trimming off some excess fat. Also adding a more detailed story and character progression. And the remake took that, made it 3D, and introduced a bunch of cool new features to flesh it out a bit more. But because this game is more story-centric than the first your progression is also paced to be more in line with the story. You get your first class change fairly early, level 18 which is achievable by the time you reach your first or second mana stone. The second class change is slightly past the halfway point of the game.

[Ketamarine]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Have you been using your job points?
Plus if you're 10 hours in I assume you haven't gotten to the first Mana Crystal yet, which will allow you to upgrade your job.

I pushed through to first crystal - and I was reading time wrong - it was at like 6 hours. But def WAY too simple. And I still only have a single "move" for Riesz, which is just a buff....

Kevin has some combat variety and angela gets a bunch of spells right away. Whether she will use the right ones against what enemy.... ???

Killed the door boss and the AI didn't try to dodge a single AOE atttack. Was effing ridiculous fight as a result... just as i switched it to hard mode...

[Ketamarine]

Originally posted by Martial Autist:

OG secret of mana was fun but also a bit rough around the edges. Think of it as a blueprint for what would be this game's original version. That game did frontload magic a little more because it just had 2 set roles and the only progression was spirit acquisition. In the second game however you start with more of a slow burn, and you will be developing your characters over the course of the playthrough. I will go over some changes both from the original snes sequel and the more recent remake, and try to explain what changed and what you can expect going forward. Lets start with character growth.

In seiken densetsu 3 every character has multiple classes, and those classes determine what kind of supportive or offensive magic they can learn. The initial class change determines the character's archetype, and the second change improves it further in different ways. There's class level[lh3.googleusercontent.com]1, 2 and 3, with a light path and a dark path each character can follow. Class 1 is your starting character, the equivalent of the boy from the first game. Class 2 consists of the initial light and dark classes, like how the girl and sprite had their own 'kit'. And class 3 consists of light>light, light>dark, dark>light, and dark>dark. Think of these ones as girl+ and sprite+. Given that there are 6 characters now, that makes for a total of 24 possible level 3 classes. This adds a lot of variation, and offers a lot of potential synergy between party members depending on your choices.

The remake in particular further expanded upon this with the skill point system which lets you learn many passive abilities which you can equip a total of 8 of, which also changes based on your chosen classes. Some are also gotten by interacting with certain NPC's, passing certain points in the story, or beating certain bosses. So while some of the abilities you are finding/learning are a bit weak at the moment, further into the game you will get way stronger ones. There is even an option to respec if you want to adjust your build (say for a specific fight, after a class change, or just feel like you made a mistake. Down to reverting class changes and picking entirely different routes. It also added class level 4.

Regarding combat. The second game polished it by giving characters an attack string instead of a single hit, and you now fill up the charge meter naturally by hitting enemies and then unleash it at a moment of your choosing. Each new charge level is unlocked with a class change, this is basically where the weapon levels went. The remake further improved upon this by adding heavy attacks and a basic combo system. So now you can end your attack string with a heavy at different points for different finishers. One for knocking enemies prone, one for AoE, and one for more damage. With additional finishers unlocked as you class change. It also added different inputs for different charge attacks, so you can manage the meter better. And a new charge attack that comes with the new class 4.

The sequel basically refined what worked well in the first game. While trimming off some excess fat. Also adding a more detailed story and character progression. And the remake took that, made it 3D, and introduced a bunch of cool new features to flesh it out a bit more. But because this game is more story-centric than the first your progression is also paced to be more in line with the story. You get your first class change fairly early, level 18 which is achievable by the time you reach your first or second mana stone. The second class change is slightly past the halfway point of the game.

Def more interesting after class change... but still pretty vanilla combat for Riesz for example as she now has exactly ONE move and it is a buff spell...

[Majin666Chaos]

"Playing with Riesz and she has ZERO abilities 10 hours in, Angela has 2 spells and Kevin has ZERO.

Like what am I missing here?"
Moves/spells are locked behind their respective elemental spirit. Except, Hawkeye kinda dances around this limitation. With the exception of Dark Rain(Nightblade), all the moves in his Luck training list are available, provided you spend the required points.


"Def more interesting after class change... but still pretty vanilla combat for Riesz for example as she now has exactly ONE move and it is a buff spell..."
Protect Up: Gnome
Protect Down: Jinn
Mind Up/Power Down: Undine(ice/snow area)
Power Up/Mind Down: Salamander(desert area)
[In the original, Gnome and Jinn also buffed/debuffed accuracy+evasion, but the stats were removed in the remake. I feel like they could've replaced them with SOMETHING. Maybe buff/debuff cast, or movement speed?]

[Martial Autist]

Originally posted by Ketamarine:

Def more interesting after class change... but still pretty vanilla combat for Riesz for example as she now has exactly ONE move and it is a buff spell...

Ah yes you will have to find a few more mana spirits to unlock all the elements. As support her primary spells will be atk up, def up, and m.atk/m.def up. And at class 3 she also gains access to a strong AoE spell. The dark path would have made her a debuffer instead.

[Drake]

The game isn't vanilla... it's a remake of a 1995 game, it needs to be put back in perspective.

They even added passives (which weren't present in the base game) and redid the XP table so that you get class change earlier.

If you want a modern take of the series, vision of mana is pretty much it.

[GrimoireA]

I don't take anyone who thinks Secret of Mana is still a good game in 2024 seriously.

That game has aged like milk and the only reason keeping you from seeing that is nostalgia goggles tightened so hard its peeling your skin. What is even more evident is the remake of SoM failing so hard to not only appease the old fans but attempting to gain new fans. The sad truth is if Trials of Mana was localized back then the cult would have favored it over SoM.

Accept the harsh truth.