Do same abilities stack?

[Nezkeys]

Let's say Duran and Charlotte both have Weak Point All equipped are they added together or it only uses one of the same type of abilities?

Likewise if I use riesz to buff magic attack then pop a sahagin chip will that further increase their mag attack?

[Drake]

There are 2 types of buff/debuffs. The ones that give you an icon in the status bar and the others. The ones that give you the icon, are the named buffs/debuffs and are uniques, so you can't stack them (they are even uniques with their counterpart, so you can't have atk up and atk down on you at the same time, they'll cancel each other), so you can't stack them, the only way to enhance them is to use the super stat up/down passives from riesz to upgrade the buff/debuff.
Typically those are the ones you get from spells, like riesz spells, the diversion spells and moon/leaf spells from hawk, the focus atk buff from light kevin or the crit moon buff fro mdark kevin, black curse and fetid breath from charlotte and the passives that give stat buff/debuffs without any number, like "30% chance to decrease defence on crit", it doesn't say decreased by how much, so it's a unique icon debuff and it's 20%. And obviously, their item counterparts also have the same restriction with the spells and passives.

Every other passive in the game stacks, except when the description specificaly says otherwise, like the "counter" passive from duran, and even then that only means from other counter passives, or if it's the exact same ability (but different levels of the same ability stack, like weak point I, II, all I, all II, all stack with each other). Weak point, rage, wound, cheat, permanent %stat increases from party aura like passives, even the HP regen when winning battle, everything stacks.

Having the correct combination of chain passives from the right party composition gives a huge difference in dps.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Drake:

There are 2 types of buff/debuffs. The ones that give you an icon in the status bar and the others. The ones that give you the icon, are the named buffs/debuffs and are uniques, so you can't stack them (they are even uniques with their counterpart, so you can't have atk up and atk down on you at the same time, they'll cancel each other), so you can't stack them, the only way to enhance them is to use the super stat up/down passives from riesz to upgrade the buff/debuff.
Typically those are the ones you get from spells, like riesz spells, the diversion spells and moon/leaf spells from hawk, the focus atk buff from light kevin or the crit moon buff fro mdark kevin, black curse and fetid breath from charlotte and the passives that give stat buff/debuffs without any number, like "30% chance to decrease defence on crit", it doesn't say decreased by how much, so it's a unique icon debuff and it's 20%. And obviously, their item counterparts also have the same restriction with the spells and passives.

Every other passive in the game stacks, except when the description specificaly says otherwise, like the "counter" passive from duran, and even then that only means from other counter passives, or if it's the exact same ability (but different levels of the same ability stack, like weak point I, II, all I, all II, all stack with each other). Weak point, rage, wound, cheat, permanent %stat increases from party aura like passives, even the HP regen when winning battle, everything stacks.

Having the correct combination of chain passives from the right party composition gives a huge difference in dps.

Thanks but I still don't know what happens in this scenario...

a) Two players have Weak point all 2
b) True Protection (anise chain ability that grants magic up and magic down on enemy at start of battle) + magic smash. Then the sahagin chip. Does having one render the other chain ability useless and is using the item pointless too? do they all wear off cause they are not a move from riesz?
c) Broken Lines + Toxic II

It's really hard to know what to equip so I'm not wasting slots. If I have super stat down and the equivalent buff stats is there any reason at all to use any abilities/items that buff debuff?

[Drake]

a) they stack. Passives that have no icon in the status bar stack (withthe exception of the counter passive), weak point all, attack boost all, magic boost all etc. they all stack.

b) they don't, the mind up and mind down effects are effects that show an icon in the status bar. The true protection is just an auto cast of the buff, the magic smash is just an auto cast on crit, the item just casts the buff. They are all alternate ways of casting riesz spells, and you can't have multiple instances of those spells.

c) they stack. To be specific, they don't interfere with each other, when using a power attack you'll poison and you're cast the defence down debuff. You can stack as many effects as you want on a crit or a power attack. You can even stack broken lines I, II III and toxic I II III on a char, they'll add the chances to apply the effects.

Super stat down/up upgrade riesz spells (and only the spells, that's what "move" means in the description), nothing else. Like, you get super stat up I and II from star lancer and cast the atk up spell. Instead of the regular +20% to atk, you'll get +32%. That buff is still an icon buff and still unique, if you use an item to get the atk up effect (or an on crit/hit passive giving the buff, or another spell other than riesz's) you'll overwrite that effect with the regular 20%, so you'll lose dps.
It's very important when using a buff or debuff build with riesz that she is the ONLY buffer/debuffer on the team. That means no item, no on crit/hit/battle start passive effect, no black curse, nothing.
The only passives you want with those are the aura boost passives . The ones that say +X% or -X% to a stat, they're called : MGC DEF/ATK/DEF/MGC ATK boost all and MGC DEF/ATK/DEF/MGC ATK down all. Since they are no icon buffs, they stack like other passives.

[EbonySeraphim]

The short answer is abilities will stack, but you may have to unwind how it works.

a) Weak Point All should stack with itself. Duran(Edelfrei) and Charlotte(Warlock) have Weak Point All. I don't think there's a Weak Point All 2. You may be conflating it with Weak Point II on Hawkeye. These all stack.
b) True Protection applies the MGC UP buff which you can only have once. Shahagin Chip applies the same buff so it does NOT stack with True Protection. Magic Smash applies a debuff on enemies by chance on critical hit. MGC DOWN on an enemy is a separate buff than MGC UP on a party member so you can enjoy the benefits of doing increased magic damage both from MGC UP on you and MGC DOWN on enemy(mdef reduced). But you cannot have the unique MGC UP on yourself twice, or MGC DOWN on the enemy twice.
c) Toxic II's defense decrease applies the standard DEF DOWN debuff. Broken Lines applies the same debuff and thus they both cannot apply DEF DOWN. Toxic II's chances can only apply a poison effect as the defense down debuff will not be stacked. A thing to consider here though is if you're looking to increase the chance or rate that you will apply the debuff at all, you may still want to take Broken Lines and Toxic, each giving you a chance to decrease defense, but once it's been applied on a given enemy, you get no further effect.

Most abilities that apply something by % chance, are applying the unique buff or debuff when it hits. The rule is, if you can see the icon indicating the stat change on yourself or on the enemy, it can only exist once there. Otherwise, it definitely stacks.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Drake:

a) they stack. Passives that have no icon in the status bar stack (withthe exception of the counter passive), weak point all, attack boost all, magic boost all etc. they all stack.

b) they don't, the mind up and mind down effects are effects that show an icon in the status bar. The true protection is just an auto cast of the buff, the magic smash is just an auto cast on crit, the item just casts the buff. They are all alternate ways of casting riesz spells, and you can't have multiple instances of those spells.

c) they stack. To be specific, they don't interfere with each other, when using a power attack you'll poison and you're cast the defence down debuff. You can stack as many effects as you want on a crit or a power attack. You can even stack broken lines I, II III and toxic I II III on a char, they'll add the chances to apply the effects.

Super stat down/up upgrade riesz spells (and only the spells, that's what "move" means in the description), nothing else. Like, you get super stat up I and II from star lancer and cast the atk up spell. Instead of the regular +20% to atk, you'll get +32%. That buff is still an icon buff and still unique, if you use an item to get the atk up effect (or an on crit/hit passive giving the buff, or another spell other than riesz's) you'll overwrite that effect with the regular 20%, so you'll lose dps.
It's very important when using a buff or debuff build with riesz that she is the ONLY buffer/debuffer on the team. That means no item, no on crit/hit/battle start passive effect, no black curse, nothing.
The only passives you want with those are the aura boost passives . The ones that say +X% or -X% to a stat, they're called : MGC DEF/ATK/DEF/MGC ATK boost all and MGC DEF/ATK/DEF/MGC ATK down all. Since they are no icon buffs, they stack like other passives.

Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to see I understand now

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by EbonySeraphim:

The short answer is abilities will stack, but you may have to unwind how it works.

a) Weak Point All should stack with itself. Duran(Edelfrei) and Charlotte(Warlock) have Weak Point All. I don't think there's a Weak Point All 2. You may be conflating it with Weak Point II on Hawkeye. These all stack.
b) True Protection applies the MGC UP buff which you can only have once. Shahagin Chip applies the same buff so it does NOT stack with True Protection. Magic Smash applies a debuff on enemies by chance on critical hit. MGC DOWN on an enemy is a separate buff than MGC UP on a party member so you can enjoy the benefits of doing increased magic damage both from MGC UP on you and MGC DOWN on enemy(mdef reduced). But you cannot have the unique MGC UP on yourself twice, or MGC DOWN on the enemy twice.
c) Toxic II's defense decrease applies the standard DEF DOWN debuff. Broken Lines applies the same debuff and thus they both cannot apply DEF DOWN. Toxic II's chances can only apply a poison effect as the defense down debuff will not be stacked. A thing to consider here though is if you're looking to increase the chance or rate that you will apply the debuff at all, you may still want to take Broken Lines and Toxic, each giving you a chance to decrease defense, but once it's been applied on a given enemy, you get no further effect.

Most abilities that apply something by % chance, are applying the unique buff or debuff when it hits. The rule is, if you can see the icon indicating the stat change on yourself or on the enemy, it can only exist once there. Otherwise, it definitely stacks.

Thanks yeah so basically if riesz is in the party I shouldn't use any of these types of abilities and just use her moves instead that can be upgraded (because drake said if any ability procs after this or I use an item then the dps goes down and overwrites rieszs upgrades?)

[Nezkeys]

What about dragon masters "opposite effect" ability?

[Drake]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

What about dragon masters "opposite effect" ability?

It gives the icon buff opposite to the debuff you cast, so it doesn't stack. They're easy to spot, if the magnitude of the buff/debuff isn't shown, they're icon buffs/debuffs so they don't stack.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Drake:

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

What about dragon masters "opposite effect" ability?

It gives the icon buff opposite to the debuff you cast, so it doesn't stack. They're easy to spot, if the magnitude of the buff/debuff isn't shown, they're icon buffs/debuffs so they don't stack.

So of I cast defenseless on an enemy it will give me defense up? Will it give me an upgraded defense up though if I used super stat down or something? Sounds like a decent ability or is it better to just manually cast all buffs and debuffs? Opposite effect will be good if no buffer on the team I guess (riesz is dark)

[Drake]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Originally posted by Drake:

It gives the icon buff opposite to the debuff you cast, so it doesn't stack. They're easy to spot, if the magnitude of the buff/debuff isn't shown, they're icon buffs/debuffs so they don't stack.

So of I cast defenseless on an enemy it will give me defense up? Will it give me an upgraded defense up though if I used super stat down or something? Sounds like a decent ability or is it better to just manually cast all buffs and debuffs? Opposite effect will be good if no buffer on the team I guess (riesz is dark)

No you won't have an upgraded version because you don't have the super stat up, the passives just gives you the regular buff as it states it. Also opposite effect only works on the caster, not the rest of the party (so you need to find a way to buff the other two).
Considering that if you have dark riesz the only way to get buffs is using items or conditional passives, using opposite effect at least takes care of riesz.

[Nezkeys]

The thing that is kinda of laughable to me is that you can just use bumpkin on any class and one shot everything. I think items from the night market should be banned tbh as having basically rogues grumpkin (even if it is "only" 9 of them per battle) is op. Besides you can get around that with the anise chain ability that let's you keep the item (I'm guessing people use this on no future mode to get around only have 3 of each items)

[Drake]

Some abilities hit harder though (like charlotte summons, not even talking about angela), while the item does a fair amount of damage, it's wood element, so no weakness abuse (no monster is weak to wood), unless you play only on dryad day. So depending on how you party is geared, a well build rune seer will out perform grumpkin with lv 3 spells.
Ancient curse has almost double base power of a grumpkin, and with the infinite mana passive, you just spam it till people are dead.
Items are useful, but they won't outperform geared dps build. Especially with abilities that have over 450 base power and have no item counterpart.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Drake:

Some abilities hit harder though (like charlotte summons, not even talking about angela), while the item does a fair amount of damage, it's wood element, so no weakness abuse (no monster is weak to wood), unless you play only on dryad day. So depending on how you party is geared, a well build rune seer will out perform grumpkin with lv 3 spells.
Ancient curse has almost double base power of a grumpkin, and with the infinite mana passive, you just spam it till people are dead.
Items are useful, but they won't outperform geared dps build. Especially with abilities that have over 450 base power and have no item counterpart.

All the things you are mentioning are late game spells/builds though? My point was that bumpkin is basically grumpkin (late game move) that you can use from the tutorial. As far as I'm aware there is no items for ancient curse or the summons. And about the wood element weakness they all die in one hit when they're neutral to it so they don't need to have a weakness to it.

[Drake]

Depends on what we're talking about. For a NG on normal or hard, theorycrafting is irrelevant, you can do the game with any composition relatively easily.

If you're talking about a prepared NG+, like for expert or no future mode, your chars are most likely over lv 38 (should be 99) and you have a bunch of ??? Seeds stacked. So if you rush to the wind stone, which is early in the game, you can get your 3rd class there and get everything running pretty fast, you don't need to wait half game (the only locked spells will be spirit elemental moves, which the powerful abilities like ancient curse and summons are not).

[mna99]

There are a few bosses that absorb Dryad damage that you wouldn't expect.