33. SS Charlemagne fight in Bobr during Bagration

[AquilaESP]

Hello, I read one developer said that there aren't SS during Bagration, but it isn't true.

During Bagration it names was Légions des Volontaires Français, after the division was reorganizated and recall to "33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der Waffen-SS Charlemagne".

This division fight in Bobr during Bagration.

Fight of Bobr (Wikipedia)[es.m.wikipedia.org]
33 SS Charlemagne (Euroasia)[www.eurasia1945.com]

[Protoss|]

Цитата допису Weaponized Autism:

Цитата допису EUG MadMat:

There were no French SS involved in Bagration. The only French SS formation at the time was the SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich", which was still training in Germany. Only its 1st battalion was hurried to the front in Southern Poland AFTER Bagration.

Yet there were indeed French volunteers wearing the German uniforms more directly involved in Bagration. But they were Wehrmacht, not SS. They were the Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF), or verstärktes Französisches Grenadier-Regiment 638 as it was known in the WH.
Most of the 1st battalion and part of the 3rd fought at Bobr with the support of half a dozen German Tigers to hold the Soviet at bay behind Orsha.

The 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1) was only created in Germany about 6 months after Bagration, and barely three before the end of the war.
Its two infantry regiments were made of with remnants from different French collaborationist units:
* one with the survivors from SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich". Those were crack troops and nazis to the core.
* one with LVF survivors, who were more pro-Pétain than pro-nazis, and very few of them were pleased to have to wear the SS uniform. Most had signed up with the LVF thinking it would be a Vichy unit, not a German one, even less a SS one!
* to bring them to strength, both received a complement of men from various origins: some from the infamous Milice which had fled France after its liberation ; others which had been previously pressed in the Kriegsmarine, Rollbahn or NSKK. Most of the latter were pressed, not volunteers.

Sturmbrigade & LVF groups attacked each others' barracks in their training camp, to say a few about the low level of esprit de corps in the unit!
Engaged before the completion of the its organization, the division was quickly forced to retreat. Most of the division fell into an ambush and were killed, only a single battalion (from the former Sturmbrigade Frankreich) which had taken another route reached Berlin. They were to be Hitler's bunker's last defenders.

I still think it is kind of ironic in some way that the last defenders of Hitlers bunker were french volunteers. 1 of Hitler,s main motives to go into WW2 was to defeat France to make up for the Defeat in WW1. and suddently it are french volunteers defending the last remnants of the Reich in 1945. it just feels weird to me.

But atleast we know this division isn,t in anyway related to Bagration. However the French LVF Seemed to have had a lot of action during bagration. would be nice to see them in the future implemented in some way or form in the game. but i understand that it can be difficult implementing such a unit considering you are from the same nationality. especially when you also going to voice such a french division just like you did with 1st blindee in SD44. giving voice to a unit of essentially Nazi collaborators can be difficult on an emotional level. it ofcourse depends on the person and how you look at it ofcourse.

Well other than most german Normal soldiers, these guys couldnt hope for getting out of htis war peacefully, when surrendering, (same goes for the Russische Befreiungsarmee, at least if surrendering to the russians). Not wanting to die is a good motivation to keep on fighting (forgot how they were treated after they got captured, but it wasnt a nice way).

also they already have french units fighting for the 1st SS in SDN 44 (as the volksdeutsche). So its not like they are so patriotic at Eugen that they deny the history. If a unit is relevant and intersting for the game it will be in it :) Dont try to create a picture which shows Eugen as politically motivated. (Only point to maybe do this is for their balance of SAS in SD1 :P)

[CheeseMerchant]

Цитата допису Protosszocker:

Цитата допису Weaponized Autism:

I still think it is kind of ironic in some way that the last defenders of Hitlers bunker were french volunteers. 1 of Hitler,s main motives to go into WW2 was to defeat France to make up for the Defeat in WW1. and suddently it are french volunteers defending the last remnants of the Reich in 1945. it just feels weird to me.

But atleast we know this division isn,t in anyway related to Bagration. However the French LVF Seemed to have had a lot of action during bagration. would be nice to see them in the future implemented in some way or form in the game. but i understand that it can be difficult implementing such a unit considering you are from the same nationality. especially when you also going to voice such a french division just like you did with 1st blindee in SD44. giving voice to a unit of essentially Nazi collaborators can be difficult on an emotional level. it ofcourse depends on the person and how you look at it ofcourse.

Well other than most german Normal soldiers, these guys couldnt hope for getting out of htis war peacefully, when surrendering, (same goes for the Russische Befreiungsarmee, at least if surrendering to the russians). Not wanting to die is a good motivation to keep on fighting (forgot how they were treated after they got captured, but it wasnt a nice way).

also they already have french units fighting for the 1st SS in SDN 44 (as the volksdeutsche). So its not like they are so patriotic at Eugen that they deny the history. If a unit is relevant and intersting for the game it will be in it :) Dont try to create a picture which shows Eugen as politically motivated. (Only point to maybe do this is for their balance of SAS in SD1 :P)

I am not trying to paint a picture eugen being politically motivated. I am saying that i would completely understand it from an emotional point of view if they do not want to implement a straigth Nazi collaborating French division into the game. and there is a difference between a division clearly being a nazi collaborating division like the Charlemagne or LVF. and a division which only had some french elements into it like the 1st SS. the difference being that you can only know that there are french elements in the 1st SS if you know the back ground information of that division. while the LVF and Charlemagne are clearly french without any background information required to know that they are french. also 1st SS was not voiced by any french Voice actor in any unit whatsoever and was still for 95 procent a German division. you cannot compare 1st SS in anyway to formations like charlemagne and LVF and say there is no difference.

I advice you to read up on a person called Henri Joseph Fenet. he was part of the last 30 or so soldiers defending the Fuhrer bunker in Berlin and got captured by the russians on the 2nd of may 1945. he got send to france by the russians and got sentenced to a forced labour camp in 1949. he got out in 1959 and did alot of interviews about his experience during the final days of the war in berlin. his other fellow country man in his unit weren,t as lucky as fenet. other men from his unit ether got Executed on the spot the moment they were captured by allied-french forces or died in captivity.

This is an example of what happened to a few man part of the charlemagne Division that got captured by the free frecnh forces at the end of the war:

On 13 May 1945, 12 French SS troops were arrested near Bad Reichenhall by French soldiers from the 2nd armored division. When General Leclerc asked why they wore a German uniform, one of them answered why the general wore an American uniform. The Free French were dressed in modified US army uniforms. The French SS men were executed without trial.

[Maschinengewehr]

The LVF won't be included. They weren't even a division at this point and only consisted of a few battalions at most. They didnt see much frontline combat at all during Bagration really.

Eugen isn't trying to censor history for whatever reason. It's just that the LVF Nazi collaborators had, in the grand scheme of the 1944 Summer offensive, a very insignificant role. They're including divisions that participated with distinction and/or bring something unique to the table. Neither of which the LVF qualifies for.

I don't blame them for executing the traitors without a trial either.

[Protoss|]

Цитата допису Maschinengewehr:

The LVF won't be included. They weren't even a division at this point and only consisted of a few battalions at most. They didnt see much frontline combat at all during Bagration really.

Eugen isn't trying to censor history for whatever reason. It's just that the LVF Nazi collaborators had, in the grand scheme of the 1944 Summer offensive, a very insignificant role. They're including divisions that participated with distinction and/or bring something unique to the table. Neither of which the LVF qualifies for.

I don't blame them for executing the traitors without a trial either.

Killing people without trial is always to blame! Even with trial I am not a fan of it.

[CheeseMerchant]

Цитата допису Maschinengewehr:

The LVF won't be included. They weren't even a division at this point and only consisted of a few battalions at most. They didnt see much frontline combat at all during Bagration really.

Eugen isn't trying to censor history for whatever reason. It's just that the LVF Nazi collaborators had, in the grand scheme of the 1944 Summer offensive, a very insignificant role. They're including divisions that participated with distinction and/or bring something unique to the table. Neither of which the LVF qualifies for.

I don't blame them for executing the traitors without a trial either.

According to the convention of geneve and the hague convention what leclerc did was a war crime. them being traitors does not justify them being executed without any form of a trial whatsoever. especially considering the allies were trying to hold up the image of being morally better then the nazi,s. this should have never happened.

Leclerc obviously did this out of emotional anger because he got a response he did not expect from the french SS soldiers. as some kind of gangster who felt disrespected he ordered the execution of those men without any legal justification. so Maschinengewehr, if this blatant war crime is justifiable to you then what stops other people from seeing Similair executions done by the Germans as Justifiable as well? you ether say all executions done without the approval of international law are bad or none are bad at all. you can,t say 1 particular execution was oke because it got done by a side with which you identify with more. that is just clear dishonesty
out of a personal Bias.

EDIT: i don,t want to derail this thread and make it all about warcrimes and what is defined as such. nor do i want to start a flame war. i only want to expose the Bias some people have with considering what is a warcrime and what isn,t.

[Maschinengewehr]

Sorry but I have no sympathy for the SS, and I'm surprised that Weaponized is nigh apologist about them.

[Protoss|]

Цитата допису Maschinengewehr:

Sorry but I have no sympathy for the SS, and I'm surprised that Weaponized is nigh apologist about them.

well that means you can still give them a trail.Which sadly wasnt done often enough in germany, as the western forces needed alot of the SS elite to reorganise the country in the way they wanted. Killing people with out trail has nothing to do with no sympathy. Esp as it leaves a big chance of error.. but i am with weaponized authism.

[CheeseMerchant]

Цитата допису Maschinengewehr:

Sorry but I have no sympathy for the SS, and I'm surprised that Weaponized is nigh apologist about them.

apologist? i am simply Judging those executions from an objective point of view. not an emotional one like you. i am glad people like you who are cleary Biased emotionally do not write the laws. what an even more unjust world we would have had.

Oh wait i am sorry. i forgot that applying Logic instead of feelings in 2019 is the same as being Literally Hitler nowadays.....

[Maschinengewehr]

Leclerc apparently just said "deal with them" after they acted all smarmy. He didn't say "kill them". His troops took it upon themselves to shoot them.

And yes I'm coming from an emotional but informed perspective; we're talking about an organisation whose members perpetrated some of the worst crimes against humanity in history. So no, I'm not sorry about my apathy towards them and have no regrets about it.

How about you take it up with people whose family was butchered in cold blood by these SS monsters. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how "objective" you are about them..

[CheeseMerchant]

Цитата допису Maschinengewehr:

Leclerc apparently just said "deal with them" after they acted all smarmy. He didn't say "kill them". His troops took it upon themselves to shoot them.

And yes I'm coming from an emotional but informed perspective; we're talking about an organisation whose members perpetrated some of the worst crimes against humanity in history. So no, I'm not sorry about my apathy towards them and have no regrets about it.

How about you take it up with people whose family was butchered in cold blood by these SS monsters. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how "objective" you are about them..

I am sure those soldiers just started shooting without leclerc knowing about it. are you really that naive? and even if leclerc did not gave a specific order to do so. the soldiers under his command who were his responsibility did so that does not remove any blame from leclerc.

the rest of your comment is all Emotionally based nonsense i have no interest in.

[acur1231]

Laws are merely there to uphold human morals. Can we really say that the execution of a bunch of die hard SS members is immoral? Illegal, yes, but not immoral. After all, I am sure the SS would do the same in the same circumstances. It might be immoral to shoot volksturm after they have surrendered, but SS? Perfectly fine in my book.

[Protoss|]

Цитата допису Maschinengewehr:

Leclerc apparently just said "deal with them" after they acted all smarmy. He didn't say "kill them". His troops took it upon themselves to shoot them.

And yes I'm coming from an emotional but informed perspective; we're talking about an organisation whose members perpetrated some of the worst crimes against humanity in history. So no, I'm not sorry about my apathy towards them and have no regrets about it.

How about you take it up with people whose family was butchered in cold blood by these SS monsters. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how "objective" you are about them..

yeah monsters have to be brought to justice, but just shooting them down is not the way to do this, you 100% sure non of them was forced into it etc? You sure all of those man followed the man that spoke out in their beliefes? Self-"Justice" is always full of error in history, this one will not be the example.

[CheeseMerchant]

Цитата допису acur1231:

Laws are merely there to uphold human morals. Can we really say that the execution of a bunch of die hard SS members is immoral? Illegal, yes, but not immoral. After all, I am sure the SS would do the same in the same circumstances. It might be immoral to shoot volksturm after they have surrendered, but SS? Perfectly fine in my book.

if you think its fine doesn,t matter. international law and both the geneve and hague conventions say you are wrong. conventions where alot of country,s decided together what was good and bad to do for all POW,s no matter the origin or what kind of organisation they belonged to. as long as he or she was an official military person no harm should be given as long as there is no trial. the french Waffen SS soldiers that got executed were officialy part of the German military thus qualifying for the POW laws decided upon during those conventions. if they got executed after a trial and investigation had be performed and were proven guilty by a judge. you would have not hear me complain

[Maschinengewehr]

Цитата допису Weaponized Autism:

I am sure those soldiers just started shooting without leclerc knowing about it. are you really that naive? and even if leclerc did not gave a specific order to do so. the soldiers under his command who were his responsibility did so that does not remove any blame from leclerc.

I was merely pointing out that you were incorrect in saying that Leclerc explicitly ordered their execution. He didn't.

And this is just devolving into whataboutism, a ruse wehraboos often revert to in my experience, when the bigger picture is that everyone deemed the SS a criminal organisation that was responsible for countless crimes against humanity and atrocities that your naive mind hasn't learned about (yet). This extended to every member of it. The Heer mostly got out of it because they technically weren't a direct arm of the NSDAP like the SS were. Yet here we are incessantly dwelling on 12 traitorous Nazi collaborators who were probably involved in war crimes anyway.

the rest of your comment is all Emotionally based nonsense i have no interest in.

Hypocritical much.

[Maschinengewehr]

Цитата допису acur1231:

Laws are merely there to uphold human morals. Can we really say that the execution of a bunch of die hard SS members is immoral? Illegal, yes, but not immoral. After all, I am sure the SS would do the same in the same circumstances. It might be immoral to shoot volksturm after they have surrendered, but SS? Perfectly fine in my book.

Precisely. At least there's someone with a reasonable standpoint here.