33. SS Charlemagne fight in Bobr during Bagration

[AquilaESP]

Hello, I read one developer said that there aren't SS during Bagration, but it isn't true.

During Bagration it names was Légions des Volontaires Français, after the division was reorganizated and recall to "33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der Waffen-SS Charlemagne".

This division fight in Bobr during Bagration.

Fight of Bobr (Wikipedia)[es.m.wikipedia.org]
33 SS Charlemagne (Euroasia)[www.eurasia1945.com]

[Phosphor 1]

French SS'ers might not be included because the devs are French. Although that would be sad, I get it. Many countries see their people as traitors for their involvement on German side, including the Netherlands. Funnily enough, we are trying to bring (female) ex ISIS members back so that might be a full on insult to the children of the SS'ers that were afraid for their own safety (even years after the war). I should know my father is the son of one and still doesn't feel welcome or safe at national holidays.

[AquilaESP]

This is really bad, it's politicize the game and not do it historic.

I not consider traitors the Charlemagne because they fought to save Europe from the communism, I admire then. I'm spanish and I not consider traitors the spanish of the 250. Infanterie Division.

[Phosphor 1]

Originally posted by Aquila-ESP:

This is really bad, it's politicize the game and not do it historic.

I not consider traitors the Charlemagne because they fought to save Europe from the communism, I admire then. I'm spanish and I not consider traitors the spanish of the 250. Infanterie Division.

Ah but the Spanish were Heer, german army not SS. Besides there were those who were actual nazis and I dislike all totalitarian regimes. Furthermore I wish I could have asked my grandfather why he chose like that. But he had been dead for more than a decade when I was born.

Point is not all of them were necessarily good or bad...

[AquilaESP]

The spanish go to defend Europe from the communism, as frenchs, finnish, estonians, etc.

SS or Wehrmacht, are all mens that fight and die for Europe and their fatherland.

[Phosphor 1]

Well their fatherland was conquered by Germans, so that is not really correct. But I see that you see communism as a bigger threat than nazism, which I mostly agree with. On the other hand I see nazism as not that much less dangerous.

In summary, I think that these men should have fought the Germans first and the Russians second. As the Germans were already in their countries..

[CheeseMerchant]

Nazism came out of a reaction against Communism. Just to be clear, Until the discovery of the Holocaust at the end of WW2 very few Western governments were critical of Nazism and it,s ideals. Hell alot of Western governements had similair policy,s in place as the Nazi party during the 1930,s and 40,s. only directed at different minorities(america and South africa with black segegration for example).Communism on the other hand was seen as a great danger by the west right from it,s creation in state form in 1917. so it is only logical that during those times Some people saw Nazism as a neccesary evil to combat the bigger evil called communism

I personally knew a couple of people from my country that served with Waffen SS wiking. they died a couple of years ago but during a conversation with them i never had the feeling they were traitors. they were simply people who perceived 1 threat as a bigger threat then the other threat. ofcourse the majority of Volunteers were already Nationalists to begin with and critical of Liberal democracy that was making a big Push in the west during the 30,ies. you know the saying fight fire with fire? Nazism was for many volunteers the fire to fight the fire of communism with. atleast that is how i came to see it based on the conversations i had with such people

I would love to see the charlemagne Division featured in the game. they were known as 1 of the most elite Waffen SS divisions even fighting until only around 30 men were left at Berlin in 1945. But if it hits to close at home for the developers emotionally. then i fully understand that.

[AquilaESP]

Boys, the teme was that one division that fought in Bagration aren't represeted in the game, when his performance was very important.

Don't discuss politics, when what the developers should do is represent the historical divisions, and not exclude one of the most important in the operation because they dislike it.

[CheeseMerchant]

Originally posted by Aquila-ESP:

Boys, the teme was that one division that fought in Bagration aren't represeted in the game, when his performance was very important.

Don't discuss politics, when what the developers should do is represent the historical divisions, and not exclude one of the most important in the operation because they dislike it.

I am simply giving context to your claim that most volunteers volunteered because they wanted to fight communism. which i agree with. not neccesarily because of being pro Nazi.

Politics from those times plays a big role in putting stuff like this in the right context.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Aquila-ESP:

one of the most important in the operation

Was it though?

There were several dozen Axis divisions from Heersgruppe Mitte involved in Operation Bagration, with another dozen or so in reserve. What makes a battalion or two of French volunteers performing rear guard operations quote, "one of the most important in the operation"? They didn't even become an SS division until after Bagration.

I'll have to look into if there were any SS divisions that were involved in the Summer offensive of 1944, but as of right now it's looking like Eugen is correct.

[AquilaESP]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by Aquila-ESP:

one of the most important in the operation

Was it though?

There were several dozen Axis divisions from Heersgruppe Mitte involved in Operation Bagration, with another dozen or so in reserve. What makes a battalion or two of French volunteers performing rear guard operations quote, "one of the most important in the operation"? They didn't even become an SS division until after Bagration.

I'll have to look into if there were any SS divisions that were involved in the Summer offensive of 1944, but as of right now it's looking like Eugen is correct.

Charlemagne soldiers are ferocity, and they defend Berlin after, are heroes of the III Reich.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Aquila-ESP:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Was it though?

There were several dozen Axis divisions from Heersgruppe Mitte involved in Operation Bagration, with another dozen or so in reserve. What makes a battalion or two of French volunteers performing rear guard operations quote, "one of the most important in the operation"? They didn't even become an SS division until after Bagration.

I'll have to look into if there were any SS divisions that were involved in the Summer offensive of 1944, but as of right now it's looking like Eugen is correct.

Charlemagne soldiers are ferocity, and they defend Berlin after, are heroes of the III Reich.

Which has nothing to do with Operation Bagration, the game's setting, now does it?

"Heroes" or traitors is a matter of perspective..

[[EUG] MadMat]

There were no French SS involved in Bagration. The only French SS formation at the time was the SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich", which was still training in Germany. Only its 1st battalion was hurried to the front in Southern Poland AFTER Bagration.

Yet there were indeed French volunteers wearing the German uniforms more directly involved in Bagration. But they were Wehrmacht, not SS. They were the Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF), or verstärktes Französisches Grenadier-Regiment 638 as it was known in the WH.
Most of the 1st battalion and part of the 3rd fought at Bobr with the support of half a dozen German Tigers to hold the Soviet at bay behind Orsha.

The 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1) was only created in Germany about 6 months after Bagration, and barely three before the end of the war.
Its two infantry regiments were made of with remnants from different French collaborationist units:
* one with the survivors from SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich". Those were crack troops and nazis to the core.
* one with LVF survivors, who were more pro-Pétain than pro-nazis, and very few of them were pleased to have to wear the SS uniform. Most had signed up with the LVF thinking it would be a Vichy unit, not a German one, even less a SS one!
* to bring them to strength, both received a complement of men from various origins: some from the infamous Milice which had fled France after its liberation ; others which had been previously pressed in the Kriegsmarine, Rollbahn or NSKK. Most of the latter were pressed, not volunteers.

Sturmbrigade & LVF groups attacked each others' barracks in their training camp, to say a few about the low level of esprit de corps in the unit!
Engaged before the completion of the its organization, the division was quickly forced to retreat. Most of the division fell into an ambush and were killed, only a single battalion (from the former Sturmbrigade Frankreich) which had taken another route reached Berlin. They were to be Hitler's bunker's last defenders.

[MushyNed]

Originally posted by EUG MadMat:

There were no French SS involved in Bagration. The only French SS formation at the time was the SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich", which was still training in Germany. Only its 1st battalion was hurried to the front in Southern Poland AFTER Bagration.

Yet there were indeed French volunteers wearing the German uniforms more directly involved in Bagration. But they were Wehrmacht, not SS. They were the Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF), or verstärktes Französisches Grenadier-Regiment 638 as it was known in the WH.
Most of the 1st battalion and part of the 3rd fought at Bobr with the support of half a dozen German Tigers to hold the Soviet at bay behind Orsha.

The 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1) was only created in Germany about 6 months after Bagration, and barely three before the end of the war.
Its two infantry regiments were made of with remnants from different French collaborationist units:
* one with the survivors from SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich". Those were crack troops and nazis to the core.
* one with LVF survivors, who were more pro-Pétain than pro-nazis, and very few of them were pleased to have to wear the SS uniform. Most had signed up with the LVF thinking it would be a Vichy unit, not a German one, even less a SS one!
* to bring them to strength, both received a complement of men from various origins: some from the infamous Milice which had fled France after its liberation ; others which had been previously pressed in the Kriegsmarine, Rollbahn or NSKK. Most of the latter were pressed, not volunteers.

Sturmbrigade & LVF groups attacked each others' barracks in their training camp, to say a few about the low level of esprit de corps in the unit!
Engaged before the completion of the its organization, the division was quickly forced to retreat. Most of the division fell into an ambush and were killed, only a single battalion (from the former Sturmbrigade Frankreich) which had taken another route reached Berlin. They were to be Hitler's bunker's last defenders.

I wish there was more content like this in-game kinda like HOI IV, it's really interesting and makes you want to look for more!

[Protoss|]

Originally posted by EUG MadMat:

There were no French SS involved in Bagration. The only French SS formation at the time was the SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich", which was still training in Germany. Only its 1st battalion was hurried to the front in Southern Poland AFTER Bagration.

Yet there were indeed French volunteers wearing the German uniforms more directly involved in Bagration. But they were Wehrmacht, not SS. They were the Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF), or verstärktes Französisches Grenadier-Regiment 638 as it was known in the WH.
Most of the 1st battalion and part of the 3rd fought at Bobr with the support of half a dozen German Tigers to hold the Soviet at bay behind Orsha.

The 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1) was only created in Germany about 6 months after Bagration, and barely three before the end of the war.
Its two infantry regiments were made of with remnants from different French collaborationist units:
* one with the survivors from SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich". Those were crack troops and nazis to the core.
* one with LVF survivors, who were more pro-Pétain than pro-nazis, and very few of them were pleased to have to wear the SS uniform. Most had signed up with the LVF thinking it would be a Vichy unit, not a German one, even less a SS one!
* to bring them to strength, both received a complement of men from various origins: some from the infamous Milice which had fled France after its liberation ; others which had been previously pressed in the Kriegsmarine, Rollbahn or NSKK. Most of the latter were pressed, not volunteers.

Sturmbrigade & LVF groups attacked each others' barracks in their training camp, to say a few about the low level of esprit de corps in the unit!
Engaged before the completion of the its organization, the division was quickly forced to retreat. Most of the division fell into an ambush and were killed, only a single battalion (from the former Sturmbrigade Frankreich) which had taken another route reached Berlin. They were to be Hitler's bunker's last defenders.

Do you know the WW2 Card game KArds? they have a 10-20 line long text to all their Cards, would be lovely to get that for SD in the future too at some point :) Always great to read your explenations MadMat :)

[CheeseMerchant]

Originally posted by EUG MadMat:

There were no French SS involved in Bagration. The only French SS formation at the time was the SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich", which was still training in Germany. Only its 1st battalion was hurried to the front in Southern Poland AFTER Bagration.

Yet there were indeed French volunteers wearing the German uniforms more directly involved in Bagration. But they were Wehrmacht, not SS. They were the Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF), or verstärktes Französisches Grenadier-Regiment 638 as it was known in the WH.
Most of the 1st battalion and part of the 3rd fought at Bobr with the support of half a dozen German Tigers to hold the Soviet at bay behind Orsha.

The 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1) was only created in Germany about 6 months after Bagration, and barely three before the end of the war.
Its two infantry regiments were made of with remnants from different French collaborationist units:
* one with the survivors from SS-Sturmbrigade "Frankreich". Those were crack troops and nazis to the core.
* one with LVF survivors, who were more pro-Pétain than pro-nazis, and very few of them were pleased to have to wear the SS uniform. Most had signed up with the LVF thinking it would be a Vichy unit, not a German one, even less a SS one!
* to bring them to strength, both received a complement of men from various origins: some from the infamous Milice which had fled France after its liberation ; others which had been previously pressed in the Kriegsmarine, Rollbahn or NSKK. Most of the latter were pressed, not volunteers.

Sturmbrigade & LVF groups attacked each others' barracks in their training camp, to say a few about the low level of esprit de corps in the unit!
Engaged before the completion of the its organization, the division was quickly forced to retreat. Most of the division fell into an ambush and were killed, only a single battalion (from the former Sturmbrigade Frankreich) which had taken another route reached Berlin. They were to be Hitler's bunker's last defenders.

I still think it is kind of ironic in some way that the last defenders of Hitlers bunker were french volunteers. 1 of Hitler,s main motives to go into WW2 was to defeat France to make up for the Defeat in WW1. and suddently it are french volunteers defending the last remnants of the Reich in 1945. it just feels weird to me.

But atleast we know this division isn,t in anyway related to Bagration. However the French LVF Seemed to have had a lot of action during bagration. would be nice to see them in the future implemented in some way or form in the game. but i understand that it can be difficult implementing such a unit considering you are from the same nationality. especially when you also going to voice such a french division just like you did with 1st blindee in SD44. giving voice to a unit of essentially Nazi collaborators can be difficult on an emotional level. it ofcourse depends on the person and how you look at it ofcourse.