You should know: Tiger I vs Panther

[Deraios]

Just stumbled upon a Reddit thread where literally everyone said that the Tiger's guns has better penetration at range compared to the Panther's one.

As far as I'm aware and according every penetration data I've ever looked upon, this is not the case until further than 2 km (which means the Panther beats the Tiger at all ranges in the game). I trust Eugen with having these stats implemented to some realsitic extent and unless somebody can provide data that says otherwise, I'll have to assume my position.

Change my mind.

EDIT: Turns out Eugen has indeed manipulated these numbers to give the 8.8 cm L/56 an advantage. Thanks for clarifying.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Deraios:

Just stumbled upon a Reddit thread

Well, there's your problem. ;b

Originally posted by Deraios:

Change my mind.

Er, what's to change? The Panther's 75mm gun fired a higher-velocity round than the Tiger's 88mm cannon, which meant higher armor penetration.

This is true in SD 2 where the Panther A has 185mm penetration with its cannon, compared to 165mm penetration of the Tiger E.

[Maschinengewehr]

Physics would dictate that the heavier projectile would retain higher joules output at terminal velocity compared to a lighter projectile at terminal velocity, given similar velocities of course.

[jswarpaint]

Playing Panzer Lehr and using the Tigers and Panthers I noticed the Panthers seem to have better stats but the Tigers do better during engagements - They - the tigers - seem to kill quicker and take less silly damage such as driver knocked out, loader knocked out, tracked, etc.

[Deraios]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by Deraios:

Just stumbled upon a Reddit thread

Well, there's your problem. ;b

Originally posted by Deraios:

Change my mind.

Er, what's to change? The Panther's 75mm gun fired a higher-velocity round than the Tiger's 88mm cannon, which meant higher armor penetration.

This is true in SD 2 where the Panther A has 185mm penetration with its cannon, compared to 165mm penetration of the Tiger E.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I've seen this multiple times now and not only on Reddit (but also here). I'm just a bit stumped about the apparent misinformation.

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Physics would dictate that the heavier projectile would retain higher joules output at terminal velocity compared to a lighter projectile at terminal velocity, given similar velocities of course.

And physics does so, but the initital velocity of the 7.5 cm on the Panther is around 150 m/s higher, which gives it the aforementioned better performance.

Originally posted by jswarpaint:

Playing Panzer Lehr and using the Tigers and Panthers I noticed the Panthers seem to have better stats but the Tigers do better during engagements - They - the tigers - seem to kill quicker and take less silly damage such as driver knocked out, loader knocked out, tracked, etc.

Technically, the Tiger's projectile would do more damage if it penetrates but I'm unsure how much this comes into play, considering pretty much all penetrations deal a lot of suppression and have the chance for an immediate kill.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Deraios:

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I've seen this multiple times now and not only on Reddit (but also here). I'm just a bit stumped about the apparent misinformation.

I think you can chalk that up to people erroneously thinking "bigger is better" (88mm vs 75mm) plus the almost-mythic reputation the Tiger developed over the course of movies, literature and video games.

The Panther was the better tank in almost every aspect, but the Tiger is iconic, and so people think it's better because they *want* it to be better. ;)

[TasteDasRainbow]

88mm > 75mm pretty straightforward.

The only instance in which the Panther has a stronger penetration value is the Panther G utilizing APCR rounds.

[MagmaShark]

"In the first Steel Division, due to the combat range being capped at one kilometer, the 88 mm gun of a Tiger tank could be less effective compared to the 75 mm gun of a Panther tank when firing at distant targets. To be more realistic, we changed that in Steel Division 2, as the weight and velocity of an 88 mm shell, for instance, will now allow it to penetrate more armor at longer range. This change is across all tanks - not only the guns but also armor - meaning that some of the units you have grown to love will behave more realistic (and differently)."

This is from the second dev diary

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by TasteDasRainbow:

88mm > 75mm pretty straightforward.

Nope - if that were true (that is, if larger rounds were *always* better), mondern militaries would still be using the .60 caliber (15.2mm) rounds that you found in Napoleonic-era muskets. ;)

Again, the Panther's L/70 gun fired a higher-velocity round with greater penetration than the Tiger's L/56 gun. The Panther could also carry more ammunition and fire faster due to the smaller round.

[TasteDasRainbow]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by TasteDasRainbow:

88mm > 75mm pretty straightforward.

Nope - if that were true (that is, if larger rounds were *always* better), mondern militaries would still be using the .60 caliber (15.2mm) rounds that you found in Napoleonic-era muskets. ;)

Again, the Panther's L/70 gun fired a higher-velocity round with greater penetration than the Tiger's L/56 gun. The Panther could also carry more ammunition and fire faster due to the smaller round.

That's only at short range, which is mitigated as a factor in this game concerning damage fall offs of velocity.

And nobody is stating that the larger round is always better, hence the discussion of APCR and it's utilization of tungsten cores for higher penetration effect.

[TasteDasRainbow]

Found some penetration rating values to display the 88's higher penetration at long range when not using APCR, where otherwise the high velocity round would be superior, the 88mm is still more effective at range.

Penetration to RHA 0-degree angle

Ammunition Range 500 Range 1000 Range 2000
75L70 APCR 234mm 199mm 145mm
88L56 APCR 200mm 179mm 143mm

75L70 APCBC 168mm 149mm 116mm
88L56 APCBC 151mm 138mm 126mm


88L71 is different case... with APCR it still penetrates 177mm and with APCBC 153mm from 3000m.

Source "World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery".

[ZASZ]

For those who can't be bothered to research for sources, this video very much sums it up in layman's terms.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0p_Rr6gUtM

[Napolavion]

It may be a silly question but... there it is:

Take an armor of 100mm, no angle.
A 95mm penetration shell.

So the round should not go through but what happens ?

1) the round bounces off the armor ?

2)the round does go into 95mm of armor and get stuck there ?

I mean a shell does not know how thick and angled an armor are does it ?
So why could it go through a plate or just bounce off it without a scratch ?

Is black magic involved ?

[jswarpaint]

From Deraios:
"Technically, the Tiger's projectile would do more damage if it penetrates but I'm unsure how much this comes into play, considering pretty much all penetrations deal a lot of suppression and have the chance for an immediate kill."

Yeah it could be my imagination the Tiger's Sounds better when firing a louder BOOM !! Sees to take longer to load

[=]

Originally posted by Eicio:

Is black magic involved ?

No, but engineering and metallurgical tolerances are.

Penetration data is an average.

That 95mm of penetration would generally bounce off (and take a big chunk of armour with it) or partially penetrate, which is nearly as bad for the crew as a full penetration, but if it hits a weak spot it will punch through.

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

The Panther was the better tank in almost every aspect

When it doesn't set fire to itself at least :)

[Minoris]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

I think you can chalk that up to people erroneously thinking "bigger is better" (88mm vs 75mm)

Immediately followed by:

Originally posted by TasteDasRainbow:

88mm > 75mm pretty straightforward.

Now that's just accidental comedy gold right there.