My Suggestion List

[Palandus]

Hi, as someone who has beaten the game, this is my suggestions list:

1. Secondary Weapons:

A) Guided Missiles:
- They need to prioritize slower targets, or speed up faster, with faster targets. When I fire 4 missiles, usually they only hit 1-2 targets, the others try to chase a speedy target.
- They need to prioritize closer targets. If you fire all 4 missiles, when low to the ground, trying to hit a tank, and all 4 decide to go for air targets, farther away, it makes it real hard to hit ground targets.
- As dumbfire rockets seem to be superior in almost every way, from travel speed, to how long they last in the air, to hitting the desired target, to points generated, I'd want the guided missiles to either reload faster, or be able to carry 6 missiles instead of 4.
- Missiles don't live long in the air, compared to enemy missiles. My missiles survive for maybe 3 seconds, whereas I've had a particularly dogged enemy missile track me for close to 8 seconds.

B) Armor Piercing Shells:
- As they lack the explosive radius of a rocket, they aren't very good against groups, so when you miss, it really hurts.
- As they are a bullet weapon, it might make sense for them to reload much faster, or allow you to carry 8-10 of them, instead of 4.
- Maybe also increase their muzzle velocity so they hit targets faster.
- I just personally don't use them much.

I've only tried the Guided Missile, Armor Piercing Shell, and Dumbfire Rockets. I'll have to try out the remaining two later.

---

2. Special Weapons:

A) Missile Swarm:
- Suffers from many of the problems as Guided Missiles.
- Biggest annoyance is that the total number of missiles isn't that great and anyone using afterburners or dash modules, seem to easily evade them.
- Also they don't all launch simulataneously, but rather 1 missile per 4 frames (out of 30) or so

B) Drones:
- A semi useful addition, sometimes. Most of the time, not though.
- They are stationary, rather than slowly following after you, so if nothing comes near them, they don't do much.
- They aren't very good at tracking their targets, and thus only seem to hit things that you would hit, if you were using Tungsten rounds.
- They don't last for all that long. Maybe 4-5 seconds at most.

I've only tried those two. The bomb option sounds unwieldy, and the Beam sounds powerful, but haven't tried it yet.

One of my biggest gripes though, is that if you partially charge a special, it still has the same cooldown. So, if you fire a half-cooked missile swarm, it takes the same amount of time to recharge as if you fired the entire swarm.

3. Modules:

A) Emergency Stall Mod = Although useful for avoiding deaths with the ground, it does trigger fairly high off the ground, making it nearly impossible to destroy ground targets with the Tungsten rounds. I think what it should do instead, is allow you to bounce off the ground, like it was an invisible barrier, rather than how it works currently.

B) Evade Mod = The location of the warning isn't good, and thus I almost never notice it while flying. Thus this is a waste of a module. Maybe if it gave a loud wailing noise, for when to perfectly dodge, that would make it much better.

C) Shield Mod = The shield doesn't last very long, and only occurs if you get hit. Rather, I think it should give you an always active shield, that takes one damage, deactivates, and then after say 15 seconds, it recharges again. Otherwise, this is the mod that is removed first when a new module appears.

D) Afterburner Mod = I honestly find that current afterburner fuel is sufficient to survive with, so this mod doesn't really do much. My suggestion is that with this mod active, your afterburners provide 2 to 3x more thrust/acceleration/velocity, per point of fuel spent, making it a much more valuable survival mod.

E) Special Weapon Mod = I have it always active, but I don't think it really speeds them up that much. Like if it takes 30 seconds to recharge normally, it takes 22 seconds instead. With this active, I'd want specials to be usable far more often, such as every 10-15 seconds. OR make it so that firing a special weapon prematurely greatly reduces its cooldown. So if you fire a half-cooked missile swarm, cooldown should be addressed appropriately.

F) Autoroll = Not a really useful one. I'm almost constantly rolling as it is, especially in large groups, as I find that keeps me alive the longest. Seems to give me Clean runs consistently. Maybe if during the auto-roll of afterburners, you had effective invulnerability for the entire afterburner burn, that would make it quite useful. Such as flying through a boss. Or evading a laser beam.

G) Dashing = I know some people like it, but I find that using afterburners provides a more precise amount of thrust rather than the abrupt dash. Also as it consumes the same fuel as the afterburner, I just don't find it useful, personally.

H) Kinetic Rod / Tungsten rounds = I find that the extra damage dealt vs the greatly reduced range, makes this only really useful against bosses. Maybe if the rounds also had the armor piercing effects of the secondary weapon, I might use them more often.

I) Rocket Scrambler = I find this one sounds cool, but in implementation doesn't work that great. You have to dodge them at a precise moment, otherwise they explode harmlessly. Or the effect has to be super close. Either way, this mod doesn't work like the Rocket Scrambler the Black Knight boss possesses. All it has to do is dodge, and all guided missiles turn on you. Whereas for you to scramble other missiles, the missile must be within like 1-2 meters of your ship to scramble them.

J) Ace module = Look I've aced several missions. I fly quite well now and can avoid most hits, and get clean runs. But that is because the ship currently is quite maneuverable with tight controls. The idea of making the ship even faster and more maneuverable makes it really hard to control your ship, leading actually to more hits, rather than less. I think to make this one better, is to activate the constant bonus weapon damage effect, when you do a perfect dodge, and have that last for even longer than normal. Say 2-3 times longer. Otherwise, I just don't take this mod.

K) Alt Fire Switch = Not sure what this does. I didn't notice any change in weapon fire patterns, or more intelligent missiles, or firing weapons faster or slower. Not sure this one does anything at the moment.

I think though my greatest complaint is that you can have only 4 modules active out of a total of 18. Maybe for regular game have it at 4, but maybe increase that amount to 6 to 8 in NG+.

[Palandus]

Further Feedback:

Secondary Weapons:
- Armor Piercing Shell doesn't seem to be very useful at all. I tried them against Tower, and even though the shot penetrated multiple sections, it didn't actually deal more damage per section hit. And as enemies rarely group up a lot, getting more than 2 hits from this weapon against aerial foes, is very unlikely.

Modules:
1. Advanced Decryption = Why is it, that I had to wait until NG+, after the first boss, to get this module? Why couldn't I have gotten it say, before the second hacking mission, in the standard mode? I haven't used it yet, but I don't understand why I must go through 5 hacking missions before I get something, to improve hacking missions.

2. Overcharged Bullets = This doesn't seem to be a very effective module. I seem to be only getting 2-3 "red" bullets per firing, if I wait 1-2 seconds between firing. Not sure they are doing all that more damage. I like the concept of waiting between shooting, but the marginal number of bullets doesn't make it worth it.

[Pat]

You lost me at...

Originally posted by Bonegrinder:

- They need to prioritize slower targets, or speed up faster, with faster targets. When I fire 4 missiles, usually they only hit 1-2 targets, the others try to chase a speedy target.

Game's fine the way it is! Master it as-is. Get in a better position to shoot. So what if they don't all hit. On and on and on.

I can't believe this post. So many words.

[Palandus]

I can't believe your post. So few words. It is a suggestion list. List, meaning lots of words.

But anyway, I am mastering the game. I'm just pointing out which options are by far the weakest, and thus the least likely to be used. There isn't much point to choice, if there is always one choice that is the most superior.

The developers likely want us to mix and match things, build our own style. That currently isn't possible as many weapons and modules just plain suck.

[WhyNot]

Hey thanks again for your feedback. It's a lot to go through, so I'll try to write a good response a bit later. We hear you! But in the meantime, please let's keep that conversation civil, there is no need to attack people. <3

[Pat]

Originally posted by Bonegrinder:

...many weapons and modules just plain suck.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Props to the dev for responding to all these posts all over the place.

I feel like your original post(s) could have been summed up as follows:

"I played this game to the end and I would have designed the game much differently."

That's like being in a steady relationship with someone, and over dinner one night dropping this on them: "I've been dating you for a while now, and I've decided that you need to change your personality, and become a different person for me."

The fact is, it's clear the game was not your cup of tea, and you are probably looking for something else. And there's plenty of "something else" out there for you.

I think it would have been much more productive for you to write a guide for the game, with your opinions on the best strategies and tactics to apply in the game.

[Palandus]

There is no point to having multiple choices, when there is a clear superior choice. I don't understand how you think that is beneficial for a game. Why bother develop all those choices, when no one is going to use them anyway.

No, it makes more sense that in order to get the most mileage for all the hard work they've put into the various different options, that they would want people to use them.

I don't understand how you don't get this?

Or is it just because you are a hateful troll, who doesn't want the developer to succeed? I'm trying to help them, be successful. If you don't like the way I'm doing things, how about YOU go and make your own suggestion list, on how they can be more successful, rather than harassing me.

Suggestions, are optional. Developers don't have to implement them. Seriously... what is your problem?

[Pat]

No hate here! Also was editing my last post as you made your reply: I suggest your opinions go in a guide!

[Palandus]

Developers rarely read guides, and the ones that do, don't act on any information inside them. If you want to make a guide, go right ahead.

However, suggestions or bug reports are really the only reliable way to point out issues to developers. I'm not in any way suggesting they nerf the game, or dumb it down. I'm just suggesting they take the less desirable options, and make them as good as the existing best choices, so that people actually can play how they want and create a style to their own liking.

[Pat]

And I think you and I fundamentally are rooting for the dev, and that's what's important. I think we just think differently about what the best outcome is, and that's OK.

I will dare to say that most of your observations about the game should not be classified as "issues" and certainly none as "bugs".

In response to your observations about guided missiles, I'll say that weapons should have limitations. Capabilities and limitations are what makes tactical games interesting. In life, your own tools are not always a perfect match for your opponent's. With all due respect, I would very much not like to see any of those suggestions implemented.

In response to your post about armor piercing shells. In the heat of battle, I want the bullets to do all the things you say to, but they don't... so I have to fine-tune my technique or find a weapon that works better for me... this tension between what I wish the bullet did and what it really does is where the *fun* in the game comes from. If you don't use that weapon much, maybe you haven't discovered its utility yet. Not something for the dev to address in my opinion, and again, I would ask that those suggestions not be implemented.

You point out some interesting limitations to the missile swarm. In particular the charge time observation. I wonder how I should adapt to those limitations as a player? That's where the fun is in it for me, figuring out how to best use my tools given their limitations.

Then you go into modules. Keep in mind some of those are considered "training modules." So that implies they are there to help you enjoy the game when you first start out. In particular I don't think the stall mod should give you a bounce, because I see that more as a "training mod" and I don't think it should give you the tactical advantages of a bounce.

To me, the remainder of your observations are just that. *Observations*. Throughout the post, you make a number of interesting points about the trade-offs of various weapons and mods, and those trade-offs make for an interesting player discussion, but I would very much like none of them to be implemented into changes of the gameplay experience. The fun for me is in thinking about these trade-offs, and thinking about which things are best for which situation. Maybe you or I think a particular weapon or mod is only good for one situation for the whole game... great... it's fine to have highly specialized weapons. And when I play for a while and eventually discover what that special situation is, that's the moment that I paid for. It's a very big assumption to say "it makes more sense that in order to get the most mileage for all the hard work [the dev's] put into the various different options, that they would want people to use them." And I believe that's an inaccurate assumption.

Reiterating that none of your original post was about "bugs." And I'd argue that none could be considered "issues"--merely one player's observations about the pros and cons of the weapons and mods available in the game.

[Palandus]

Thank you for your indepth reply. We do seem to be operating from two different kinds of designing points of view. I'm operating from a perspective created from watching a ton of Extra Credits videos, and building my own video game, that a lot of people like to play. So, I'll try to break down my point of view.

Bugs/Issues, for reference, fall into one of three categories:
1. Things that are not working as intended by the developer.
2. Things that crash the game.
3. Missing functionality, at least in the opinions of the players.

Usually bugs or issues (the terms are often used interchangeably) fall into the first two categories, but the third is often an issue with open world games, like Skyrim. The developers intend for you to get to a quest in a certain fashion, and aren't prepared for you to skip that step, and if the players find the "cave" where the quest is located first, it creates all sorts of havoc with the quest system. Most players call that a bug. Most developers would argue that everything is working as intended, and you should have done the quest in the order that they made it in.

One issue that is often raised in video games is the difference between a "binary" choice, the "illusion" of choice, and the issue of first order optimal strategy.

A binary choice is something like "yes" or "no"... or "guided missiles" or "dumbfire rockets". You have a simple choice of one thing or the other. You simply pick the first or the second.

The illusion of choice is where you have three+ options, but only two of them are actually viable. This is a huge problem for Diablo 3, wherein they created 5 runes for every skill, but the entire playerbase will only ever use 1 rune or maybe 2 runes of those 5.

First order optimal strategy is where you find that there is just one obvious choice, out of a binary choice or an illusion of choice, and it is clearly superior to all other choices, usually for min/maxing purposes. All other choices are inferior to this one, and thus no matter the situation, you will always use this one choice, no matter what the game throws at you.

What people want in video games is for their choices to matter in some fashion. That they have consequences both good and bad. That the choices impact how they play, even if the choice is simple, such as choosing to walk to the left path, or to walk to the right path, in a fork in the road.

Currently this game suffers from First Order Optimal Strategy (FOOS), and the Illusion of Choice (IOC).

In all the secondary weapons (technically Special Weapons), Dumbfire Rockets are clearly the most superior choice of all. They give more points than guided, have an explosive radius, travel almost the entire length of the battlefield, and reliably destroy light to medium aircraft in a single hit, even on NG+. If you do not use Dumbfire Rockets, your gameplay will be severely affected, as some missions are just not completeable with other weapon types, particularly score attacks.

Now they can address this in one of three ways:
1. They can nerf Dumbfire Rockets, and anger everyone who likes using them.
2. They can buff all other weapon types, to eliminate Illusion of Choice, and force people to make a hard decision, and eliminate First Order Optimal Strategy.
3. They can ignore the issue, as you suggest, and people will continue to use Dumbfire Rockets, and never touch any other weapon, once they realize that Dumbfire Rockets are clearly the best option by a longshot.

My suggestions are aimed at trying to reduce or eliminate FOOS and IOC. It seems that you are approaching it from the direction of, the player that is afraid that the developer will choose option 1: Nerf the good strategy, and force everyone to find a new sub-optimal weapon to choose from. I can understand that perspective. Often it is cheaper in development time to nerf the good strategy, rather than do option 2: buff all other options.

I'm trying to encourage the developer to take option 2, leaving all the existing strategies alone, while buffing up all the other strategies they had hoped people to use, and thus encourage more build variety.

Everyone likes having more, meaningful choices. No one likes their favorite choice to get nerfed. Maybe my suggestions are not the ideal way to buff up all the other sub-optimal strategies, however, I don't see anyone else trying to encourage more build variety, so I have my ideas on how to improve build variety. If they choose to not go with them, that is their call. Any game with more build variety, is always more fun in the longrun, and eliminates a lot of the boredom of doing the same thing over and over again. People like me, like to experiment with new builds, but when other builds are clearly worse than the FOOS, it totally defeats the purpose.

I hope I explained my point of view, clearly enough. Otherwise, questions?

[YinYin]

All the starting modules (stall/alert/shield) and weapons (guided missiles) seem to be designed as training wheels. (I'm certain there is an EC video on this - it's a pretty good idea to ease players into a challenging game like that)

They make sure you get into the action quickly, regardless of how much you fumble around - but ultimately new unlocks are so much better that you swap away and never turn back after you've learned the basics and don't need them anymore. (not crashing, dodging, aiming)

This has worked on stall and alert for me.

First one because I got used to the movement at some point and wanted to do the near ground acrobatics. Bouncing off the ground would not only look and feel ridiculous, players would also be less incentivised to start flying without this/use and enjoy other modules.

Second one because the standard effects for missile warnings (danger HUD and proximity beeping) do the job. And clearly you don't need the reminder to press a button either, if you mash it constantly as you say. (by the way you absolutely can dodge straight through enemies)

The shield I actually often still keep on, because going from 3 to 0 hearts within seconds just sucks big time. But it still appears to be a training wheel, so it clearly needs no improvement.

Missiles I actually kept on all the way until the first difficult scoring mission as well - because I didn't want to be stuck with only unguided weapons (only dabbled with new ones on either secondary or charge slot). It took other players to let me know that these just don't score high enough to realise just how much more powerful and fun everything else is.

I do think they could retain a bit of a better niche use, by being much worse against slow/stationary targets, but better against fast ones. That's the classic guided/unguided design anyway and the game already appears to be going in that direction. But this doesn't require anything drastic other than increasing speed and possibly prioritising fast moving things more.

(and not scoring so significantly less as to be entirely useless for scoring missions would be nice - I don't mind them being the most difficult option though)

Drones

These are extremely powerful. You cannot put x4 projectiles on screen all by yourself. Go hover/circle around them or use them against slow/stationary targets. They wreck everything. With pre charge and charge mod you can also have 3 of them out at all times.

One of my biggest gripes though, is that if you partially charge a special, it still has the same cooldown.

You might need to recount your seconds there.

Afterburner Mod

This is rarely something I use for survival unless flying the auto roll (which is the survival mod, not this one). I use it a lot more to hunt down targets or quickly change my trajectory. (chasing down 3 bombers for example ...)
With other things also eating into your heat capacity and auto roll becoming your only way to dodge with dash equipped, this is extremely useful. I feel like making it faster will just make it uncontrollable.

edit: oh yeah, this also increases the back blast damage of your after burner ... pretty cool

Special Weapon Mod = I have it always active, but I don't think it really speeds them up that much.

Having it always active significantly contradicts your quest for improving it :p
It cannot be bad, if you are not choosing something else over it.
(and I see lots of other players also always using it, because it's so significant)

Autoroll = Not a really useful one.

There are some bugs where certain lasers do not trigger this when they should.

Other than that this is pretty much your invulnerable-while-boosting you want.

It's also extremely important for retaining the ability to dodge with the dash. (jack of all trades!)

Dashing

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this is an attack. And a very powerful one at that. Just like the one a certain enemy type uses on you.

Rocket Scrambler

I haven't used these ones yet, but I heard they don't actually turn around as expected and only try to acquire a new target. Activating this at a larger distance sounds overpowered to me.

Ace module = I just don't take this mod.

I'm curious what input method you fly with. To me the standard mobility is way too sluggish and the main reason I don't perform very well. Would actually love an even higher increase for dodge roll turn rate with this module, but I heard it's kept low so the arcade controls don't become too twitchy.

Alt Fire Switch = Not sure what this does.

This changes your charge weapon. The drones for example start to move as you wanted.

I think though my greatest complaint is that you can have only 4 modules active out of a total of 18. Maybe for regular game have it at 4, but maybe increase that amount to 6 to 8 in NG+.

There are several deliberate combinations and specialisations to discover here (like jack of all trades). Opening up these restrictions would undermine all that.