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Sugogron Mar 15, 2024 @ 6:50pm
Thoughts about healing hands wards mechanic
Hi,

I am planning a paladin reroll atm so ofc I did have a look to that crazy healing hand wards mechanic xD

And I was wondering how they are going to nerf it, or are they going to nerf it at all ? Regarding the recent balance poll results, I'm not so sure as I dont see a bug here, just a "classic" balance issue.

I mean, I read some people saying it's actually a bugged mechanic, but what is the bug about how it's working and what we can read in the tooltip ?

Other than that, using the experimental affix on the gloves just make it quite a lot better as you can look for the lower affix tier possible (this is so bad xD) and you dont waste multiple useful affixes using the legendary chest or boot with the same mechanic.

On my side I imagine a massive drop of the percentage of healing converted into wards, but even so, imo it will remain "mandatory" for every kick attacks sentinel builds looking to push corruption or arena.

I mean my first character is a melee void knight and you can really feel the limitation of stacking HPs VS getting temporary ones as ward by thousands (even if it gets reduce a lot) and still having some equivalent HPs pool.

What are your thoughts about it ? Can you see a good way to balance it ?
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Showing 1-11 of 11 comments
Kirzan Mar 15, 2024 @ 7:13pm 
The best and simplest idea I've seen so far is Kripp's: Adding a max ward cap based on max HP. So with 5K HP, let's say ward cap is +50% HP, you could only get 7500 Ward through any means.

This roughly controls the maximum amount of ward players get, regardless of how busted a certain build or affix breaks it, and encourages the player not to ignore normal defenses. Plus, you'll hit your ward cap and then know that it's worthless to build more, so you build elsewhere. HP, damage, whatever.

So not only is it useful at adding caps to things, so that EHG can balance difficult content without having to worry about busted Ward, but it's also fun for the player to go back and forth scaling different things.

---

Edit:
I'm not talking about Healing Hands because these busted skills aren't the problem. Micro-balancing all sources of busted ward will be a nightmare for them and it's smarter to tackle the problem at the source.

But I guess they could nerf crazy ward sources, yeah. Just flat nerf them. I just think it'll be impossible for them to create meaningful end-game if builds range from having 4k HP to having 40k ward.

In this scenario, in order to kill the 40k ward guy, which is probably what most people would run, the boss has to do more damage per hit than what some other builds have as max HP. So... It's impossible for the 4k HP guy, or the boss can't kill the 40k ward guy... That's just terrible design.

Whereas, if everyone has capped ward based on another stat that has a theoretical cap, then it's possible to imagine a range of what most people's HP will look like and design boss damage around that. It's a lot easier to balance boss damage when the HP range is 5k-13k vs 5k-50k.
Last edited by Kirzan; Mar 15, 2024 @ 7:29pm
Ravenkid9266 Mar 15, 2024 @ 7:27pm 
There problem with ward is the lack of counter play.

Generation is fine.
Scaling to overflow is fine.

The problem is monsters with no counter play. Nothing lethal bypasses ward, and nothing interacts with ward.

Every other defense has holes, who "forgot" to give ward holes? Given ward was a meme stat for so long until ZiggyD made Exsanguinous, and then the developers started to catch up to the ward playstyle.

It's just going to take more time for them to get around to either nerfing it, boo hiss, or adding the counter play.

A cap would be silly, especially one tied to HP. Look at how ward is generated and maintained and you will see how much of it would be wasted, even from a single item, if they capped it in such a manner.

Even the lowely advent of the erased would generate wasted ward. Conversely with a cap those same powerful ward items become a manditory layer of defense limiting build variety.
hutchinsonjc Mar 15, 2024 @ 7:39pm 
If you're talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqfiQXVjtI

I'm pretty confident there's an interaction there that is bugged.
Kirzan Mar 15, 2024 @ 7:58pm 
Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:
There problem with ward is the lack of counter play.

Generation is fine.
Scaling to overflow is fine.

The problem is monsters with no counter play. Nothing lethal bypasses ward, and nothing interacts with ward.

Every other defense has holes, who "forgot" to give ward holes? Given ward was a meme stat for so long until ZiggyD made Exsanguinous, and then the developers started to catch up to the ward playstyle.

It's just going to take more time for them to get around to either nerfing it, boo hiss, or adding the counter play.

A cap would be silly, especially one tied to HP. Look at how ward is generated and maintained and you will see how much of it would be wasted, even from a single item, if they capped it in such a manner.

Even the lowely advent of the erased would generate wasted ward. Conversely with a cap those same powerful ward items become a manditory layer of defense limiting build variety.

Holes only work if the maximum values are controlled. As long as people can build crazy ward, holes either won't have an effect on the outliers, or make low-mid ward stacks useless.

At the end of the day, they made ward an easy addition to most builds in the game. That's one big part of the problem. You're not choosing ward as your defense, you have to build it, because you can build, and why wouldn't you build it. Period. It's already mandatory, my friend.
Last edited by Kirzan; Mar 15, 2024 @ 8:01pm
Ravenkid9266 Mar 15, 2024 @ 8:19pm 
Originally posted by Kirzan:
Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:
There problem with ward is the lack of counter play.

Generation is fine.
Scaling to overflow is fine.

The problem is monsters with no counter play. Nothing lethal bypasses ward, and nothing interacts with ward.

Every other defense has holes, who "forgot" to give ward holes? Given ward was a meme stat for so long until ZiggyD made Exsanguinous, and then the developers started to catch up to the ward playstyle.

It's just going to take more time for them to get around to either nerfing it, boo hiss, or adding the counter play.

A cap would be silly, especially one tied to HP. Look at how ward is generated and maintained and you will see how much of it would be wasted, even from a single item, if they capped it in such a manner.

Even the lowely advent of the erased would generate wasted ward. Conversely with a cap those same powerful ward items become a manditory layer of defense limiting build variety.

Holes only work if the maximum values are controlled. As long as people can build crazy ward, holes either won't have an effect on the outliers, or make low-mid ward stacks useless.

At the end of the day, they made ward an easy addition to most builds in the game. That's one big part of the problem. You're not choosing ward as your defense, you have to build it, because you can build, and why wouldn't you build it. Period. It's already mandatory, my friend.

This might be a hot take but so what? Mid to low ward should get just as punished as mid to low dodge or any other defense.

As for holes there are plenty of ways to make it count even for the big ward stackers. Temp disable generation, percent of current ward damage to ward, dots that are more effective vs ward, and on and on.

Part of the reason it is currently "manditory" is a lack of holes, and opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost to gain some ward is too low. Most build can easily fit in 1-2 items for too much ward.

Ward should be an all in feels good type of defense, not just another layer. It's like dodge in that respect, the rating not the guaranteed type.
Last edited by Ravenkid9266; Mar 15, 2024 @ 8:19pm
Sugogron Mar 15, 2024 @ 9:57pm 
Lots of interesting things m8s, thx !

The hardcap is an intersting way but the more I think about it, the more I think it will break the ward philosophy as a mechanic. And it needs classes / builds specific balance to avoid to destroy 1 HP builds or very low life style.

Adding a ward counter play to mobs looks so hard to implement and to balance and still it does not fix the busted generators. I just can't see a situation where having massive wards pool becomes a weakness rather than a defensif bonus.

For healing hands, atm it's a bit sad that the way to get insane ward generation is about boosting healing and not put a single point in specific ward passives in his skill tree. The whole heal to ward conversion concept sounds a bit meh, it forces you to overspec in heal rather than going for other nodes, like wards ones, lightning DoT spread and so on.

And yeah I agree that those wards issues break the overall mobs scalling experience. With my VK I can't see myself grind this character to death to get some undreds more HPs and a few damage reduction percents to still get one shoted while my setup is more invested in defense than offense. And paradoxically my damage output is not a problem at all when reaching my max arena. Just lacking overall mitigation to then sustain with leech / heal, etc...

EDIT: Regarding the pala video, I dont get how he went from like 0 wards to 50k instanly a few times, am i missing something ? Bug confirmed ? xD
Last edited by Sugogron; Mar 15, 2024 @ 10:03pm
Mikek111 Mar 15, 2024 @ 10:51pm 
Even with 25k ward you will still be oneshotted if you do not do mechanics and stand in place on high end game bosses as a HH pala. Without insane amounts of ward HH pala still has very strong dmg mitigation and healing.
Sugogron Mar 17, 2024 @ 4:12am 
Just discovered a new example of HH "build" non sense.

You will certainly be surprised but it is based on HH wards generation :D And a single legendary item, great find ! :D

At least you still need HPs with this one ^^

To resume you're stacking ultra long duration bleeds with a full elemental spell build aka smite + HH without any base spell damage. But bleed duration and stacks goes that crazy that you need a void spell to make the stacks proc damage immediately.

It's not a whine about balance as in this particular case im pretty sure it's no that good in comparaison of regular HH builds but everything is a no sense in it, no build consistensy at all, that's awful xD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrRcRr6bAE
Lord_WC Mar 17, 2024 @ 11:05am 
Originally posted by Sugogron:
It's not a whine about balance as in this particular case im pretty sure it's no that good in comparaison of regular HH builds
It's an objectively bad build, the rest of HH builds also are.
Sure, you are durable but it takes ages to kill trash. It makes good YT headlines blowing up bosses in 5s but if you spend an hour to get there I really don't see a problem with their existance.
Videogame Jukebox Mar 17, 2024 @ 11:06am 
i just use it to move around and shoot holy lasers. its pretty fun.
astatine Mar 18, 2024 @ 8:26pm 
Originally posted by hutchinsonjc:
If you're talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqfiQXVjtI

I'm pretty confident there's an interaction there that is bugged.
It is not a bug, it is a balance issue.

Divine Barrier's Healing Conversion states: If the ally has an effect that causes them to gain ward per second based on their missing health, then all of healing hands' healing is converted to ward.

With 4 levels in urgent healing, you get 240 healing per cast (excluding lingering warmth which also applies to ward): 100 upfront, another 140 upfront from urgent healing.

A decked out pala has around 1200% healing effectiveness with HH including HH passive tree which gives a heal of 3120 upfront heal per cast.

With max Hand of Aurelus you can tie HH to smite so you can get heals doing smite damage while also mitigating the reduced cast speed from Virtue of Patience.

Calculation time:
With a T7 cast affixes on a 1h weapon, gloves and relic, and devotion you get around +130% cast speed
Smite base speed is 1.467 so with a 130% increased cast speed, you are casting HH 3.3741 times per second which translates to a ward generation of 7746 ward/second excluding excluding lingering warmth ward generation)
Using Frostbite Shackles getting a ward retention of 500% is normal.
So by excluding all other forms of ward generation as well as lingering warmth ward generation you get about 68k ward with 10,527 ward/second.
Without taking into account all other sources of ward generation, you should stabilize at around 92,111 ward.

Considering non-BiS gear and other forms of ward generation, 90k+ ward checks out based on skill description and calculations. Therefore, there is no bug.
Last edited by astatine; Mar 18, 2024 @ 8:27pm
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Date Posted: Mar 15, 2024 @ 6:50pm
Posts: 11