The class balancing feels off

[CaptainPOCK]

I’m not sure how to start this, but I’ll dive right in: I think the classes and subclasses in Last Epoch really need some (a lot of) rebalancing. I’m saying this based on my experience with three different classes so far.

First, I started with Sentinel > Forge Guard. I liked the idea of a melee-summoning class - being able to "forge" weapons on the go to help you in combat sounded awesome. But while it looks great on paper, the execution doesn’t deliver. This subclass struggles in both defense and offense. Abilities like Rebuke lean into survivability, sure, but the damage output is mediocre at best.

By level 40 (somewhere in the desert area), I had around 400 health and was dealing about 200 DPS myself, maybe 1000 with my summoned weapons. It felt underwhelming, so I figured it just wasn’t the class for me and moved on.

Next, I tried Mage > Runemaster. To be honest, I picked this class solely because of Runic Invocation. The idea of casting different combinations based on prior elements sounded fantastic. But once again, it ended up looking better on paper than in practice. Despite having over 40 possible combinations, I found myself relying on the same three: Trinity of Elements, Antipode of the Rune Slinger, and Grand Prism Nova. The DPS was excellent, but the playstyle boiled down to spamming those same combinations repeatedly. It felt like a wasted opportunity.

Finally, I tried Rogue > Falconer based on a friend’s recommendation. They said it’s fun and easy to pick up. I went in blind - no guides, just experimenting, picking what feels right. Now, at the same level and stage as my Forge Guard was, I have 600 health, 40 health regeneration, and my Falcon and Ballistas are hitting for over 1000 damage per shot/attack. My bow inflicts heavy bleeding that melts bosses. Basically, wherever I go, things die - fast.

To sum it up:
> Forge Guard: Too difficult, low DPS, average survivability. Maybe good with optimized builds
> Runemaster: Cool on paper, high DPS, requires academic scholarship to memorize combinations.
> Falconer: Fun to play, simple, strong defense, crazy offense (I’ve seen 6k crits at level 40!).

Maybe this imbalance is intentional, but it feels weird. I haven’t even touched the Acolyte or Primalist yet - who knows, they might have subclasses that are even more broken.

I mean, I'm not sure if any updates will ever be done again, but giving forge guard for instance some love would be nice. I like that playstyle, but it just underdelivers.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by CaptainPOCK:

I It felt like a wasted opportunity.

Rune master was basically gutted from the original concept so what you are feeling is normal.

As for class balance it has been off for quite sometime with the newer options being vastly superior to the older ones. Excluding that aspect even within the older ones balance has been wild in its variation. Would you be surprised to know that when rogue was first released it was considered overpowered? (This was pre-falconer)

Setting that aside again even basic concepts within some classes were wild. There are posts going back years of the developers denying basic facts like the Sentinel was not fulfilling class identity, in this case being the tanky slower methodical knight archetype. Now they are "reworking" sentinel sorta calling into question all that developer defense of the class but it is what it is.

My personal favorite example is an old developer post where they said that the Sentinel was not supposed to be a light and nimble class darting in and out of combat, but at the time had more movement skills then your ability bar could support. Something worth pointing out when at the post-story level combat quickly becomes move or die and even in story major difficulty spikes come in the form of highly telegraphed attacks intended to one-shot you.

Even within class you had masteries "stepping on each others toes" like with Sorcerer and Rune master both being the "tri-elemental blaster" type and the reason to play one over the other often comes down to who the patch notes were favoring at the moment. As opposed to you know class identity, play feel, or other factors, something we saw recently with the shift from RM > Sorcerer patch notes Sorcerer > Rune master.

In short, no its not just you and multiple people have multiple times pointed this imbalance out.

[CaptainPOCK]

In all honesty, I would have assumed the Forge Guard being more of a slow, but resilient type of class, spending time to summon weapons and having the health bar to do so. But in a grand scheme of things, I spent more time running around trying to avoid hits and landing an anvil from time to time. It felt off.

Don't get me wrong, Falconer also feels off for being so broken balance-wise, but at least this playstyle feels what he's supposed to do. Interesting to know that Rogue was also considered overpowered pre-falconer.

And Rune Master... Well, I'll skip this one for now. Once I finish this character now, I'll try Primalist maybe.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by CaptainPOCK:

Interesting to know that Rogue was also considered overpowered pre-falconer.

A bit of clarity, its not that rogue was considered overpowered for a tremendous amount of time, it was more of a League of Legends situation. Rogue was considered overpowered on release, and then for some time, then rogue caught some nerfs. We saw the same thing with Rune master.

[TwistedMike]

Im at level 28 as a Paladin with 560 HP and 520 DPS rating on my primary skill (which is a default sentinel skill). Perhaps you were unlucky with drops?

[Scissorhands]

Your assessment is welcomed, but please be aware that it is still almost worthless.

I'm not saying this to be mean. There are near limitless combinations between passives, skill trees, and gear. Because everyone has taken a wildly different path than you, your experience represents a miniscule amount in the grand scheme.

I had people telling me Disintegrate was trash compared to other mage skills. I found it to be the easiest way to play this game and it carried me well in to end game.

Tried necromancer and falconer and hated them both.

Started a spin to win forge guard and again, super easy mode.

Topics about builds are far more helpful when they discuss what you specifically did that works, instead of assessing multiple classes and believing they need some kind of "balance".

[Hi11Zone]

only having 5 skills and no free moment ability for every class is beyond pathetic, and i would of never allowed this if i was the ceo.. its brain dead stupid

[runy.mmorpg]

Originally posted by Hi11Zone:

only having 5 skills and no free moment ability for every class is beyond pathetic, and i would of never allowed this if i was the ceo.. its brain dead stupid

5 skills is enough
"no free moment ability" what are you speaking about ?
all class have movement skill(s) and there is an evade now

[WallaceTheSane]

My guess is you were just unlucky with drops, as I started with mage and ended up massacring the story with volcanic orb. I got my tooltip up to almost 15k before even hitting monoliths and my mage is at 56. Went to druid and went bear, and I got garbage drops, but I still do exceedingly well with clearing. I've made my first pally spin to win with fire and I did end up getting amazing drops while leveling, but that carried me into monoliths and I'm 66 now. I think it's just a matter of sticking to one part of the tree per skill unless there's a really good passive that benefits what you're trying to do.

[CaptainPOCK]

Originally posted by Scissorhands:

Your assessment is welcomed, but please be aware that it is still almost worthless.

I'm not saying this to be mean. There are near limitless combinations between passives, skill trees, and gear. Because everyone has taken a wildly different path than you, your experience represents a miniscule amount in the grand scheme.

I had people telling me Disintegrate was trash compared to other mage skills. I found it to be the easiest way to play this game and it carried me well in to end game.

Tried necromancer and falconer and hated them both.

Started a spin to win forge guard and again, super easy mode.

Topics about builds are far more helpful when they discuss what you specifically did that works, instead of assessing multiple classes and believing they need some kind of "balance".

There is a clear distinction between building for something specific using guides, and casually playing without a plan in mind. I have approached all three classes the same way and with the latter mindset - not using guides.

This is where balancing becomes an interesting topic. Almost any class, skill, or combination can be made useful or powerful if approached the right way. This isn’t exclusive to Last Epoch - it applies to many games. For example, in Warframe, players have created specific builds for underperforming warframes and turned certain abilities into powerful tools. If you understand the mechanics well and focus on enhancing a particular ability, it’s often possible to make almost any build viable. That didn't prevent the developers though from buffing certain classes.

Tapping into a casual realm, you begin to see which classes have the better overall performance. No guides, no builds you found on whatever site, none of that. Just play and skill what you think feels right. And if any class begins to feel lackluster - excluding things like unlucky drops - I do feel like there need to be at least some adjustments. In my opinion.

I understand that your comment isn’t intended to be mean or aggressive, but it can come across as dismissive of feedback. This attitude, in my opinion, has contributed to the downfall of some games, leading to either widespread criticism or even the game being taken offline entirely. Not every game, though.

Of course, drops and how good they are or how good they synergize with your builds also contribute to the overall performance, but that's a variable that should change as you go on. Sometimes you're overperforming, sometimes you're underperforming. While I don't have much experience with this genre altogether, from the three games I've played, that's what I've gathered.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

I got my tooltip up to almost 15k

You do know the tooltip DPS is built on purpose to be inaccurate right?

[WallaceTheSane]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

I got my tooltip up to almost 15k

You do know the tooltip DPS is built on purpose to be inaccurate right?

Yes, I do. It's not an accurate representation of your actual damage.

[Hi11Zone]

Originally posted by runy.mmorpg:

Originally posted by Hi11Zone:

only having 5 skills and no free moment ability for every class is beyond pathetic, and i would of never allowed this if i was the ceo.. its brain dead stupid

5 skills is enough
"no free moment ability" what are you speaking about ?
all class have movement skill(s) and there is an evade now

while wasting a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ skill slot

[WallaceTheSane]

Originally posted by Hi11Zone:

while wasting a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ skill slot

You really don't need a ton of skills lol. Sometimes, simple is better. Making things too simple is bad, but making things too complex is also just as bad. 5 seems like a good middle ground these days. You should be glad we don't still have only two.